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> The End Times, Are we there yet?
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 20-Nov-2006, 08:36 AM
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I disagree with you saying that the anti-Christ is a state of mind and not a man but it does make sense. I do agree that the stage is not fully set. The atrocities the Jews got heaped upon them during WW2 is still fresh in many peoples minds. I mean what did the Jews do to diserve that. My neighbors father saw it with his own eyes during the war and is still affected by it.


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haynes9 
Posted: 20-Nov-2006, 12:16 PM
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Interesting thoughts all - even from you, John wink.gif !

Scripture seems to indicate the Antichrist is a gentile (non-Jew) and possibly European. There are many things that we have now that make the possibility of his rise more plausible. I, too, believe he is an individual. I do not believe he is Judas reincarnated, though I have good friend that hold to that view. I also tend to think he is active in government today, but that we will not know his identity until after the rapture.

BTW, Nova, I agree that the rapture is pretribulational (Sorry all about the overuse of theological terms).


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 27-Nov-2006, 09:36 PM
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You know speaking of the "end times", I use to get mad when I heard people mocking men of God and calling them evil. Well now I comfort myself that it's only the sign of the times. I hear Christian and non-Christians on a lot of the CR message boards blasting Israel, Pat Robertson, etc. Well, I don't totally agree with Rev. Robertson and Israels behavior in the past has been questionable. Well all I can say is it's just one more piece to the puzzle. What is sad is all those around the world who mock Christianity, men of God, and condem Israel, if the rapture occurs in their life time, they'll all unfortunately. However, they'll be in a better position then those who have died. Those who are dead can't repent. I do my best to stay out of arguments over preachers and if I don't care for a certain man of God, I keep my mouth closed. They are still commissioned by God for God. Just remember when David had the chance to kill Saul ? And why he didn't? Saul, as evil as he was was was still Gods anointed and David knew that. I try to remember that when I hear a preacher I disagree with. But hey these are the last days and I'm excited.
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 27-Nov-2006, 09:41 PM
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QUOTE (Nova Scotian @ 27-Nov-2006, 09:36 PM)
. What is sad is all those around the world who mock Christianity, men of God, and condem Israel, if the rapture occurs in their life time, they'll all unfortunately.

I was pulled away and didn't finish my thought here. As I was saying, If the repture occurs in their life time, they'll all unfortunately remember what was told to them. Many will make excuses but many will seek God at that point. wink.gif
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Celtic cat 
Posted: 04-Dec-2006, 08:38 PM
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First of all, I have nothing against the Jewish faith or Israel, honestly I don't really know what is happening right now over there. But I find something contradictory here. Some of you are saying sorta that God will punish the non-believers of Christ, and that God will end the world because of anti-semitism. I am not sure but someone mentioned that in the Bible it states that the end of times is near when Israel is destroyed. So why would God end the world in defense of His people the Israelites...and persecute Jews for not believing in Jesus?..I say this only because I have heard many people say that Jews are going to hell. I don't personally believe that but hey. Seems like the Old testament and New contradict each other if what everyone is saying is true. btw I am not trying to be conflicting just genuinely confused. Someone show me some verses please. thanks


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Robert Phoenix 
Posted: 05-Dec-2006, 12:42 AM
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Hi Celtic Cat The whole process is very hard to explain because there are so many different viewpoints about the end of the world and how it will happen. I doing this purley from memory so my timeline might be out of wack abit. Before WWII nobody like the Jewish people. Support for Isreal has been a very big thing since Hal Lindsey book "The Late Great Planet Earth" came out during the late 60-early 70's? Most of the viewpoints you hear about today revolve around this book. His teachings actually date back to an Anglican priest who came up with the theology of the rapture during the 1800's. The time line is usually (1)-Isreal becomes a state which happened in 1949 (2)-the rise of the one world govermentand the antichrist who heads up this 13 nation group. Some have pointed to the UN, other the European Common Market, others russia or China. (1.5 or 2.5) you pick the time for the The Rapture were all the true Christians are taken to heaven takes place either before or after the tribulations started by the antichrist.
(3)New temple is built in Isreal by antichrist to plaese the jews but he uses it as base of operations-commands all to worship him. Jews and christians give him the raspberry.
Seven years of tribulations take place under the antichrist with persecution of Christians if they have not already been raptured or new Christians who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 converted Jews.
Final war betwen Jesus and antichrist.
10,000 year reign of Jesus-final judgement, etc
Gets more complicated from then on. So most of the support for Isreal comes from the belief that they are God's chosen people and you don't mess with God's chosen ones (ex:see Pharoah) and because of the pivitol role that Isreal plays in the all end times scenes. Most evangelical groups, those who are "born again" (was one for 10 years) will follow this end time pattern. More traditional Protestant groups such as the Lutherans (was me) tend to just say-we don't know when-just be ready. Roman Catholics (that's me now) have some elements of it plus a few other things most evangelicals have never even heard of but are probably just as scary. But the theme of an antichrist, a tribulation, and a conversion of Isreal (they shall look upon him whom they have pierced) are present in the scenerios.


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John Clements 
Posted: 05-Dec-2006, 09:08 AM
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Recently I heard some republican politician on the radio, saying that the idea of global worming is the greatest Hokes ever perpetrated on the people of these United States. Well as usual, being opened minded. I canít say that I agree with him, because I think the greatest story ever told, is the greatest Hokes, IE, religion in general. Yea, I know, Iím going to burn in hell for eternity, well so be it!
JC


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Celtic cat 
Posted: 05-Dec-2006, 04:52 PM
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Roberto thanks for that information, very helpful. But why do some Christians say that Jews are not going to have salvation, while thoughts here on the forum seem to be that they are the chosen people? thanks again
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 05-Dec-2006, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE (John Clements @ 05-Dec-2006, 09:08 AM)
Recently I heard some republican politician on the radio, saying that the idea of global worming is the greatest Hokes ever perpetrated on the people of these United States. Well as usual, being opened minded. I canít say that I agree with him, because I think the greatest story ever told, is the greatest Hokes, IE, religion in general. Yea, I know, Iím going to burn in hell for eternity, well so be it!
JC

Most of us in here all ready know that you think all religion is a hoax JC. Can't you be nice about it and not come in here and try to throw it in our faces. I mean I know that some don't keep it out of other threads. I say if someone says they don't want to hear it, I respect their wishes. This area, Kirk and chaple is not the place to come and not expect to hear about faith and "religion" as you put it. This is a place for Christians to discuss their Faith and yes sometimes it get REAL INTERESTING unsure.gif However, that is what Kirk and Chaple is for. Anyway JC, I love ya anyway! biggrin.gif
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Robert Phoenix 
Posted: 06-Dec-2006, 12:09 AM
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QUOTE (Celtic cat @ 05-Dec-2006, 04:52 PM)
Roberto thanks for that information, very helpful. But why do some Christians say that Jews are not going to have salvation, while thoughts here on the forum seem to be that they are the chosen people? thanks again

For a long time most of Christianity hated the Jews and it was perfectly acceptable. A good example would be Shakespare's Merchant of Venice. Jews and Christians started to not get along about the time that the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. Christians were kind of protected from Roman authorities because they were still considered a Jewish sect. When they started getting too seperated in theology the two groups went their seperate ways and not on good terms. The seperation meant that Christians were not longer protected under roman law and were then persecuted. So Jewish and Christian relations have always been strained up untill WWII. The Holocast seemed to open the eyes of a lot of Christians but not all. There are many different denominations and types of Christianity and each holds its own view on Jews and their salvation. That is why you get conflicting viewpoints. There are still alot of issues Christians haven't agreed on and this is one of them.
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Robert Phoenix 
Posted: 06-Dec-2006, 12:32 AM
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This article is from a Catholic website. I hope it helps better than I can
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9902chap.asp
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haynes9 
Posted: 06-Dec-2006, 01:03 AM
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QUOTE (John Clements @ 05-Dec-2006, 08:08 AM)
Recently I heard some republican politician on the radio, saying that the idea of global worming is the greatest Hokes ever perpetrated on the people of these United States. Well as usual, being opened minded. I canít say that I agree with him, because I think the greatest story ever told, is the greatest Hokes, IE, religion in general. Yea, I know, Iím going to burn in hell for eternity, well so be it!
JC

The word is "hoax," John. Know you're big on accuracy. Just had to help you out there.

Personally, I would like to see you in Heaven someday. Much of religion is a hoax. Can't disagree with you there. But not all folks who profess faith in Christ are fakes and phonies.

I do believe in a literal Hell, but have no pleasure in the thought of anyone going there. That's why I preach what I preach and do what I do to try and get folks to see that there is a Heaven to gain.

Have a good day, my friend. Anxious to hear how the Costa Rica trip goes.
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haynes9 
Posted: 06-Dec-2006, 01:25 AM
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QUOTE (Celtic cat @ 05-Dec-2006, 03:52 PM)
Roberto thanks for that information, very helpful. But why do some Christians say that Jews are not going to have salvation, while thoughts here on the forum seem to be that they are the chosen people? thanks again

It's kind of difficult to encapsulate this issue. No criticism, though, because you have asked a great question.

God chose Israel through which to perform His work. Of course, Jesus was a Jew and the Bible itself is a Jewish book. The Old and New Testaments do not contradict, but they do show different aspects of God's plan. His way of salvation was always and still is through the Messiah. As a Christian, I believe that is and was Jesus Christ. Most Jews do not believe this.

God has not forgotten Israel and there is still a relationship and a plan of God for Israel. But the way of salvation is something that is made for individuals. I believe the Bible teaches the way of salvation is available to all men, whether Jew or Gentile. The requirements are the same. If a Jew or Gentile (non Jew) receives Christ as their Savior, they have Heaven as their permanent home. For all, Jew or Gentile, who reject His plan of salvation, there are consequences.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it isn't really and "Jew or non Jew" thing. And I also realize that an issue this complicated has been oversimplified (I'm talking about my attempt to explain this). There will come a day in the Tribulation that Israel will be converted as a nation. Another long, drawn out discussion!

I can recommend some works that might go into more detail on this if you like. Drop me a PM or on this forum and I'll give you a list of things that I find helpful on this subject.

Take care and have a great day!
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 07-Dec-2006, 06:58 AM
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QUOTE (haynes9 @ 06-Dec-2006, 01:25 AM)
It's kind of difficult to encapsulate this issue. No criticism, though, because you have asked a great question.

God chose Israel through which to perform His work. Of course, Jesus was a Jew and the Bible itself is a Jewish book. The Old and New Testaments do not contradict, but they do show different aspects of God's plan. His way of salvation was always and still is through the Messiah. As a Christian, I believe that is and was Jesus Christ. Most Jews do not believe this.

God has not forgotten Israel and there is still a relationship and a plan of God for Israel. But the way of salvation is something that is made for individuals. I believe the Bible teaches the way of salvation is available to all men, whether Jew or Gentile. The requirements are the same. If a Jew or Gentile (non Jew) receives Christ as their Savior, they have Heaven as their permanent home. For all, Jew or Gentile, who reject His plan of salvation, there are consequences.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it isn't really and "Jew or non Jew" thing. And I also realize that an issue this complicated has been oversimplified (I'm talking about my attempt to explain this). There will come a day in the Tribulation that Israel will be converted as a nation. Another long, drawn out discussion!

I can recommend some works that might go into more detail on this if you like. Drop me a PM or on this forum and I'll give you a list of things that I find helpful on this subject.

Take care and have a great day!

Very well said. I believe God has a plan for EVERYONE to make it to Heaven. Like you said that the Jews will be converted in the end, I believe according to genesis, that the Muslims in the end will all be converted. After all they are followers of a descendent of Abraham. King Hussain of Jordan said before he died after Jordan formally recognized Israel, " I pray the day will come where we will all put down our weapons and be family again".
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John Clements 
Posted: 07-Dec-2006, 10:42 AM
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Hi Nova, I have to say, how pious of you, to forgive me for being disagreeable, on an open forum? You know, itís just that sort of demeaning attitude, that puts me off religion in general. But thatís ok, because I forgive you too.

haynes9, thanks for the spelling correction, and, your interest in my up and coming trip to Costa Rica. I canít wait to go, because Iíve been an avid snorkel diver, since I was a kid, and this will be my first opportunity to go diving, in the mighty Pacific. All though I must say though, I hope I donít run into any Great Whites out there. I mean, I certainly wouldnít want the end times to come any sooner for me, then need be.

And now to get back to the subject of the End Times, which I do believe is inevitable, God or no God. Of course I could be wrong, I which case, I guess Iíll be posting from depths hell, but not on this forum, because my head hurts too much, from constantly banging it against the walls of Jericho.

Enjoy yourselves guys, itís later then you think. (What a great song. I wish I wrote it.)
JC
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