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> The Popes Comments, He shouldn't apoligize
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 22-Sep-2006, 04:24 PM
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The recient comments the Pope made I personally think he shouldn't apoligize for. He was quoting a text nothing more now Churchs and other Christians are being attacked. If the Muslims don't like history, then that's their problem. The way they reacted, as well as the way they reacted to the cartoons back in February, to me shows a lot about their religion. The problem is so many people think if the Pope just apoligizes, everything will be all right.


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Tassiecelt 
Posted: 27-Sep-2006, 02:24 AM
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You know, there's not a lot I agree with the Pope on, but I agree with you that he should not have apologised.

Anyway, no disrespect, but isn't the Pope's word sorta final when he speaks? if so, then why say sorry?, unless he is wrong...and he was not wrong.

Our own dep. PM has come out in defense of the Popes words, saying that the actions of some muslims bear out the truth of what the Pope said.

Violence should never be tolerated from any religion, Christian, Muslim alike...IMHO.


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 27-Sep-2006, 04:51 AM
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QUOTE (Tassiecelt @ 27-Sep-2006, 02:24 AM)
You know, there's not a lot I agree with the Pope on, but I agree with you that he should not have apologised.

Anyway, no disrespect, but isn't the Pope's word sorta final when he speaks? if so, then why say sorry?, unless he is wrong...and he was not wrong.

Our own dep. PM has come out in defense of the Popes words, saying that the actions of some muslims bear out the truth of what the Pope said.

Violence should never be tolerated from any religion, Christian, Muslim alike...IMHO.

I know what you mean. I see the way you folks in the land down under are handling these Muslim extreamist and I hope you keep it up.
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 27-Sep-2006, 04:58 AM
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QUOTE (Nova Scotian @ 27-Sep-2006, 04:51 AM)
QUOTE (Tassiecelt @ 27-Sep-2006, 02:24 AM)
You know, there's not a lot I agree with the Pope on, but I agree with you that he should not have apologised.

Anyway, no disrespect, but isn't the Pope's word sorta final when he speaks? if so, then why say sorry?, unless he is wrong...and he was not wrong.

Our own dep. PM has come out in defense of the Popes words, saying that the actions of some muslims bear out the truth of what the Pope said.

Violence should never be tolerated from any religion, Christian, Muslim alike...IMHO.

I know what you mean. I see the way you folks in the land down under are handling these Muslim extreamist and I hope you keep it up.

Actually here's an e-mail my brother sent me.


Australia's stance on Islamism

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to
get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head
off potential terror attacks

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to
Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John
Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a
crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard,
hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if
they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were
made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country
which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you,"
he said on national television.

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are 2 laws governing
people in Australia: one the Australian law and, another, the Islamic law,
that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent
courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to
go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better
option," Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said
those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other
country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that
Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off.
Basically, people who don't want to be Australians and who don't want to
live by Australian values and understand them, well, then, they can
basically clear off," he said.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying
he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques quote:

"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired
of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or
their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a
surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians."

"However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the
'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that
our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do
I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to
Australia."

"However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our
country, and apparently some born here, need to understand."

"This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to
dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we have
our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle."

"This culture has been developed over 2 centuries of struggles, trials and
victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese,
Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of
our society, LEARN THE LANGUAGE!"

"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right-wing
political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian
principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is
certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God
offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your
new home, because God is part of our culture."

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is
that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you
should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are
happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't
care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your
culture, but do not force it on others.

"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you
every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining,
whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, or Our Way of Life, I
highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,
'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.'"

"If you aren't happy here, then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here.
You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American citizens will find
the backbone to start speaking and voting the same truths! smile.gif smile.gif
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jedibowers 
Posted: 27-Sep-2006, 10:46 AM
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I hope that we do something simular. At first it was just telling Islamist estremist to get the @#$ out of America and her allies' countries. But towards the end, it is a good policy for all immigrents. Live by our laws and adopt to our way of living. You are coming to live with us, so don't expect us to change the our ways to suit you. This is our home and we will do what we want. If you don't like it you can leave. Can we copy this articule and send it to Congress as a bill?
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Tassiecelt 
Posted: 28-Sep-2006, 12:24 AM
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Yes Nova Scotian, I appreciate the sentiments of the Federal Government and have a lot of respect for our Prime Minister Howard (I had a business tea with him recently and had a chance to encourage him to lead our country in Godliness).

However, lets' see if these words are followed by action. Australians in general are more cynical about politicians that say, the Americans tend to be. We are less Patriotic, it comes from the early days of Australia being little more than a penal settlement.

I digress, I'm sorry.
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 28-Sep-2006, 04:51 AM
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QUOTE (jedibowers @ 27-Sep-2006, 10:46 AM)
I hope that we do something simular. At first it was just telling Islamist estremist to get the @#$ out of America and her allies' countries. But towards the end, it is a good policy for all immigrents. Live by our laws and adopt to our way of living. You are coming to live with us, so don't expect us to change the our ways to suit you. This is our home and we will do what we want. If you don't like it you can leave. Can we copy this articule and send it to Congress as a bill?

thumbs_up.gif DO IT! Please! Sent it to DC. thumbs_up.gif
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Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 
Posted: 28-Sep-2006, 09:53 AM
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 28-Sep-2006, 10:17 AM
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Interesting. I was just reading something by Ernst Renan having to do with roots of nationalism, written in 1882. ("Qu'est-ce q'une Nation?" "What is a nation?") Roosevelt's comments seem to be ringing off this celebrated piece of political philosophy. But Renan is also specifically saying that there are elements of potential cohesion of a people that are NOT enough to make a nation:
Language, religion, race or ethnography, community of interests, by which he means common economic goals and strategies, and geographic boundaries. Renan says instead that a nation is something more abstract: ". . . A soul, a spiritual principle. . . a great solidarity created by the sentiment of the sacrifices which have been made and of those which one is disposed to make in the future. . . the consent, the clearly expressed desire to continue life in common."

Now, this is the kind of non-specific, lofty rhetoric we hear from presidents, whether they are Roosevelt or Bush. But they are abstract enough to permit of all kinds of exclusionary attitudes. And thinking that a nation is NOT any of the other things means that we can implicitly seek to exclude people from membership in the nation, based on just those things. America was founded on the idea that religion (but not race) is no criterion for exclusion, of course, but we can still always fall back on the big foggy principle of "life in common," and play big us-and-them games determining just what that is. It is what has kept minorities on the margins, and it is what is driving comments like those in the Australian document, which is by and large an insulting and exclusionary atrocity.

A hyphenated American is claiming and keeping track of a far older birthright that goes beyond American inclusion (or what are all you proud scots-irish folks doing here celebrating your hyphenated heritages on this site? smile.gif ). Roosevelt was full of crap on that one, whether he was a president or not.

Not that any of that has much to do with the Pope and his comments.
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Antwn 
Posted: 28-Sep-2006, 01:57 PM
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To even have an immigration policy at all implies an exclusionary mentality, or the control of whom and how many enter and integrate. Its based on an underlying assumption of exclusion, the immigrants allowed being the exception to it.

The point about the Australian comments is a fear of the unanimity of law being compromised and what would happen if diverse legal standards were applied. That concern was stated in the first paragraph. The concern is not to expel because of religion per se, although Sharia law is religious law, but to ensure that existing legal standards are respected, maintained and upheld by immigrants. I don't see that this is an unreasonable request.

Obviously there's a concern for jihadist entrenchment in Australia, an overshadowing fear that may account for the vehemence of comments and absolutism of the policy, yet some countries in Europe which have allowed enormous Muslim emigration now face these exact problems.

Countries usually don't have a problem with accepting a diverse immigrant base so long as they don't or are not perceived to subvert the existing order or usurp cultural self identification and redefine it, however nebulous one thinks that is. For a group to insist upon their right to Sharia law in Australia subverts the existing legal order because it dilutes legitimate legislative power over the institution and enforcement of law. It also may stimulate further compromises by setting a precedent for future legal diversity and may even attract it.

The insistence to practice Sharia law clearly undermines the legal standard in spirit if not in overwhelming effect at the outset. I'm not referring to religious custom or law relating to the eating of pork, but in this case Muslim principles of jurisprudence relating to the same issues to which Australian law already applies.

If I were going to move to a country which abided by Sharia law I may personally consider that enough of a reason not to immigrate, after researching some details. How is it atrocious for a country to expect the same of its potential immigrants? Are first world economies obligated to accept any immigrant who wants to define for themselves the laws under which they live in their adopted land? Why? Under what ethic are they obliged to do so? Do Australians have sovereignty over their own country or not? Doesn't that sovereignty include determining the standards for enacting law? Why should they compromise it?


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Tassiecelt 
Posted: 07-Oct-2006, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE
Do Australians have sovereignty over their own country or not? Doesn't that sovereignty include determining the standards for enacting law?


Sadly, I believe the answer to this question is "no". Australia has signed many many agreements with the United nations and other world bodies, most, without the people and even many politicians in some cases. The result of this is that the people really don't have a say, whichever government is elected they still have to abide by international treaties. This has severely eroded our independance.

It's still, however, IMHO, one of the best countries in the world to live. Women are respected a good deal more in general than in Muslim countries for one thing.
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 07-Oct-2006, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE (Tassiecelt @ 07-Oct-2006, 04:12 PM)

Sadly, I believe the answer to this question is "no". Australia has signed many many agreements with the United nations and other world bodies, most, without the people and even many politicians in some cases. The result of this is that the people really don't have a say, whichever government is elected they still have to abide by international treaties. This has severely eroded our independance.

It's still, however, IMHO, one of the best countries in the world to live. Women are respected a good deal more in general than in Muslim countries for one thing.

I certainly don't like your gun laws. The lady who was instrumental has since moved here to the US to try the same thing. Well she certainly under estimated the NRA. If it were up to me she'd be shipped back to the land down under quick.
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Robert Phoenix 
Posted: 07-Oct-2006, 09:47 PM
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I would probably agree with most of the statements here. The only thing I would fear is a country that suddenly decided that If you don't any aspect of it than get out. There should always be room for some civilized disagreements and cultural differences just to keep the higher ups on their toes. the only exception I would probably make is if those differences cause harm or violence to some unwilling participant. But, taking country loyalty to the extreme, can you imaging how many holidays would be outlawed because they were not American in origin?


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 08-Oct-2006, 11:48 AM
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QUOTE (Roberto Phoenix @ 07-Oct-2006, 09:47 PM)
I would probably agree with most of the statements here. The only thing I would fear is a country that suddenly decided that If you don't any aspect of it than get out. There should always be room for some civilized disagreements and cultural differences just to keep the higher ups on their toes. the only exception I would probably make is if those differences cause harm or violence to some unwilling participant. But, taking country loyalty to the extreme, can you imaging how many holidays would be outlawed because they were not American in origin?

I apoligize for coming off so strong. But, this is an area that really bugs me. Rebecca Peters moved to New York and has in mind global gun ban. Having a gun is an American right clearly stated in our Constitution. She came here with the intent to take that right away. Al kada wants to do the exact same thing in a different spectrum. If you move to a country you should respect the country. What she is doing is a total disrespect to what men and women have died for to preserve. To me someone or anyone like her needs to GO. thumbs_up.gif Other then that, I love Australia and Australians.I h biggrin.gif ave a Cousin from Canada who just married a lovely colleen from the "Land Down Under". Never have been there but hope to make it some day. Also I love Rebecca St. James's music. God is using her in awsome ways.
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 23-Jan-2007, 07:14 PM
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I really think another terror attack has to happen in order for everyone to see just what these sickos want to do. I pray to God it doesn't happen.
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