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Emmet 
Posted: 30-Jul-2006, 09:47 AM
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So, Emmet, are then any news sources you find reliable that report things that don't support your positions? Believe me, I'm not a big fan of the media in generals, but where do you go for your news?


Pretty much all of them I read with a bit of skepticism (often quite a bit of skepticism); I always think of Joseph Goebbels; “Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play”; in the case of the mainstream American press, a keyboard on which the big corporations can play, which come to think of it is pretty much the same thing. I do like Common Dreams (which draws from many sources), the Independent, the Guardian, and often the editorials of the Madison Times and the Toronto Star. I also read CNN, the BBC, and Al Jazeera. I find the major network evening TV news; NBC, ABC, and CBS nearly worthless, and Faux News Network completely worthless; about as "fair and balanced" as Al Jazeera.

As for supporting or not supporting my positions, information (if reliable, or at least believable) is information; therefore essentially neutral; whereas propaganda is most decidedly not. I do not intentionally cherry-pick facts that support my positions on issues, although I do disregard information I consider spurious or irrelevant.

To the best of my ability, "my positions" are based upon information interpreted as rationally as possible within the context of my beliefs, values, and understanding of history, and as such are always subject to revision at any time more accurate (or more believable) information becomes available. There's an old story of the learned scholars of the Royal Society insisting for years that there was no such thing as a black swan, until one day someone arrived from Russia with some black swans. I think of it as a lifelong learning process; dogmatic adherence to beliefs written in stone are likely in error, and the longer they go without examination and revision, the greater the likelihood of error becomes.


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 30-Jul-2006, 10:25 AM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 29-Jul-2006, 11:11 AM)

I'm an American taxpayer.

The research and development of the weapons systems being used to devastate Lebanon was funded entirely by my money.

The American military-industrial complex which supplies the weapons systems being used to devastate Lebanon is wholly subsidized by my money.

The weapons systems being used to devastate Lebanon that were given to Israel were paid for with my money (every U.S. loan to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress. Between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and not a dime ever repaid).

Due to our firm commitment to tax relief for the needy rich, the U.S. is the world's largest debtor nation; we borrow the money we give to Israel. Since 1949 the interest on those loans has totaled 49.937 billion dollars of my money.

Israel can actually use U.S. foreign aid to purchase weapons. Therefore, the weapons systems being used to devastate Lebanon that Israel bought from the U.S. were, you guessed it; actually paid for with my money.

I have a right, too. Let's just say that as an American taxpayer (total since 1949; $133.132 billion dollars of my money!), I feel that I've a legitimate vested interest in the matter at hand.

Also as you've already alluded to, 9/11 demonstrated that our myopic and unqualified support of Israel can actually have some rather negative repercussions here at home as well.

Well being you're part of a Canadian Legion post, you can't move to Canada and and pay taxes and not support Israel. Many countries support Israel with trade and with that money they buy weapons. So there isn't too many places you can go without supporting Israel.

Also, just leaving these Arab Muslim extreamist alone and stopping supporting Israel is something we should do then everything will be all right? Well lets look at what happened when those Danish cartoonist published those pictures of Mohammad. Over little old cartoons! Yes. Christians have demonstrated against very offensive pictures of Jesus but the demonstration s are so small they're not noticed. How about what the Ottoman turks did? Israel wasn't even around as a nation but they invaded Armenia and other parts of western Europe saying it was they're Islamic duty to do so. So yes that's what we need to do just leave them alone. They hate us for what we have and the Influance we have in the world. Ie, Hollywood, the internet, entertainment, fashion, womens rights. The tantrum they pulled with those cartoons was just their way of trying to force fear on the west.

This is my last response to Emmet


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Nova Scotian 
  Posted: 30-Jul-2006, 11:28 AM
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How about what the Ottoman turks did? Israel wasn't even around as a nation but they invaded Armenia and other parts of western Europe

Eastern Europe I mean.
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Raven 
Posted: 30-Jul-2006, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 29-Jul-2006, 09:15 AM)
I'd start off by saying again that the IDF is not only the fifth most powerful military in the world, but also one of the most technologically advanced, armed and equipped as they are by the United States. For them to claim that the massive civilian casualties are merely regrettable "collateral damage", merely unfortunate accidents of war, can only be interpreted one of two ways; A: they're grossly incompetent (as we all know, hardly likely), or B: they're intentionally targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure.

C the Hezbollah targets are so well intrenched in civilian areas that taking out the target involves civilian collateral damage no matter what.

Perhaps a part of the Hezbollah plan as it is a way to foment negative public opinion against the Israelies. The Hezbollah obviously have little regard for the Israelie civilians that they kill or for human life in general.

It is unfortunate that these brave people of the Hezbollah have to hide behind women and children when confronting their mortal enemies.
It is unfortunate that they feel that it is somehow an indication of their bravery that they can kill unarmed women and children.
It is unfortunate that they are so impotent and cowardly that they can not confront anyone who has an opportunity to defend themselves and so must resort to fighting a "war" of atrocity.

War Crimes more likely or how about just crimes. I am offended by their methods and I am offended by people who ignore their henious crimes and expect other people to sit by and either appease these criminals or do nothing in response. The Lebonese government either

A - does not care that these vermin live among them using their civilian population as sheilds
B - Supports what they do and are there by accountable
C - is to impotent themselves to do anything about it, in which case they still will suffer the consequences.

My 2 pennies

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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 30-Jul-2006, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (Raven @ 30-Jul-2006, 12:26 PM)
C the Hezbollah targets are so well intrenched in civilian areas that taking out the target involves civilian collateral damage no matter what.

Perhaps a part of the Hezbollah plan as it is a way to foment negative public opinion against the Israelies. The Hezbollah obviously have little regard for the Israelie civilians that they kill or for human life in general.

It is unfortunate that these brave people of the Hezbollah have to hide behind women and children when confronting their mortal enemies.
It is unfortunate that they feel that it is somehow an indication of their bravery that they can kill unarmed women and children.
It is unfortunate that they are so impotent and cowardly that they can not confront anyone who has an opportunity to defend themselves and so must resort to fighting a "war" of atrocity.

War Crimes more likely or how about just crimes. I am offended by their methods and I am offended by people who ignore their henious crimes and expect other people to sit by and either appease these criminals or do nothing in response. The Lebonese government either

A - does not care that these vermin live among them using their civilian population as sheilds
B - Supports what they do and are there by accountable
C - is to impotent themselves to do anything about it, in which case they still will suffer the consequences.

My 2 pennies

Mikel

Excellent points Raven! It's about time someone else is looking at the insanity of Hesbula.
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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 30-Jul-2006, 07:42 PM
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One thing I don't understand is holding up the actions of terrorists to justify similar acts by those who appose them. I agree that terrorists killing civilians is a horrible thing. However, pointing out that terrorists have no problem killing civilians and other civilians doesn't seem to me to be a good justification for another country doing the same. If anything it appears to be comparing them TO terrorists, not justifying them.

Also, it doesn't seem like anyone in here has evidence of the attrocities doone by the Hesbula and other that Israel is fighting. I've read a lot of stuff in here labling them as terrorists, etc...but no real evidence to back it up. Are those who are arguing for Israel assuming everyone knows how horrible their enemies are? Because as someone who doesn't know much of the situation it appears as if Israel is taking things a little far.

Also, and maybe I have outdated ideas of war, but if Israel is supposedly better outfitted than their enemies, and they've killed hundreds where there enemies have killed less than 100, it seems that Israel just doesn't care about the civians they are killing. I would think that an army as strong as they are would be able to fight this war w/o all the colateral damage they have if they really wanted to.


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 30-Jul-2006, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE (CelticCoalition @ 30-Jul-2006, 07:42 PM)
aOne thing I don't understand is holding up the actions of terrorists to justify similar acts by those who appose them. I agree that terrorists killing civilians is a horrible thing. However, pointing out that terrorists have no problem killing civilians and other civilians doesn't seem to me to be a good justification for another country doing the same. If anything it appears to be comparing them TO terrorists, not justifying them.

Also, it doesn't seem like anyone in here has evidence of the attrocities doone by the Hesbula and other that Israel is fighting. I've read a lot of stuff in here labling them as terrorists, etc...but no real evidence to back it up. Are those who are arguing for Israel assuming everyone knows how horrible their enemies are? Because as someone who doesn't know much of the situation it appears as if Israel is taking things a little far.

Also, and maybe I have outdated ideas of war, but if Israel is supposedly better outfitted than their enemies, and they've killed hundreds where there enemies have killed less than 100, it seems that Israel just doesn't care about the civians they are killing. I would think that an army as strong as they are would be able to fight this war w/o all the colateral damage they have if they really wanted to.

Fighting a war w/o colateral damage is easier said then done.
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CelticRadio 
Posted: 30-Jul-2006, 09:50 PM
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I'm not one to post much to the political forum, but just a few comments.

What Israel has is a War Machine. As echoed in this thread elsewhere, they have one of the most powerful armies on earth. Additionally, it is rumored that they have in their posession not just nuclear weapons, but the devestating neutron bomb.

Most of the military technology they have is U.S. made and backed.

The people of Israel are descendants of holocaust survivors. They will not allow the same to happen again to them and unfortunately, they seem to be neighbors to entire peoples that preach the destruction of their country.

Let's blame Hitler for this, because he is the one that began this nightmare. He does have a hand in all of this, and that is scary that one of the biggest monsters of the 20th century started this all!

As military technology spreads throughout the muslim world clashes will become more deadly and costly.

What needs to happen is the governments of these countries need to educate their people to respect other points of view. We all need to live together and our focus should be on our economies and raising the standard of living.

But somehow I don't think that is going to happen. What I see are peoples that are so proud of their culture, their religion and their lands that they think they are better than anyone else. It is national pride on steroids. Reminds me of the pre-WWII Japan and Germany.

But here is a question to ponder, say the Israel defenses do not hold, say they nuke tel avia - who is going save Israel? Who will come to defend their country?

Does the United States have the stomach for a full blown regional war, possibly another World War??? Do we want to send our sons and daughters to die by the 10,000's.....or........

do we make use of battlefield nuclear weapons?

I'm convinced that if it came down to it, we do not have the stomach nor the desire to lose many a good men and woman. The nuclear option will become more tempting and a solution to be pondered by politicians and presidents.

All because people do not get along and hate each other to the core. What a pitiful shame. All I can say is I am so glad to live in the United States where I can call black, white, chinese, muslims and a hundred other nationalities friends. I don't have hatred bottled up in me like a bottle that is about to explode.

I just pray to God this all comes to a peaceful end. The alternative is our worst fear.




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Emmet 
Posted: 30-Jul-2006, 10:00 PM
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leaving these Arab Muslim extreamist alone and stopping supporting Israel is something we should do then everything will be all right?


No, but bludgeoning them with complete disregard for the innocent civilians around them isn't going to help, either (assuming that innocent civilians aren't being intentionally targeted, which is a proposition that's becoming increasingly hard to swallow in light of the body count). Israel acts as if they consider all Shi'a Lebanese to be synonymous with Hezbollah (or perhaps they consider the difference irrelevant; after all, they're all Arabs, right?), but at the rate they're inflicting "collateral damage", virtually all Shi'a in Lebanon (at least, those who survive), might become Hezbollah in the very near future. Yesterday they blew down another apartment complex, killing over 60 civilians. 135 Katyushas landed in northern Israel today, killing no one, for all practical purposes the same as on the first day three weeks ago. Other than slaughtering hundreds of innocent Lebanese, there's no evidence that Israel has accomplished anything but re-energize and make international heroes throughout the Muslim world out of what only a few weeks ago was an increasingly politically isolated (and increasingly irrelevant) minority party, and make themselves (and us) look like brutal war criminals in the eyes of most of the world (U.S. excepted, of course), Muslim and otherwise. I fail to see how teaching another generation how to hate, kill, and die will resolve anything...but perhaps that's not the real objective, anyway.
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 30-Jul-2006, 10:00 PM)
I fail to see how teaching another generation how to hate, kill, and die will resolve anything...but perhaps that's not the real objective, anyway.

Right on.


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Emmet 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 08:24 AM
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As Macfive alluded to, it's often a matter of respect.

Demonizing your enemy is a decidedly double-edged sword. On the one hand, it's much easier to kill people you feel smugly superior to; racially, morally, technologically, or otherwise. On the other hand, the more you dehumanize your enemy, A; the harder it is to negotiate any common ground; the sine qua non for peace, and B; the more you think of them as ignorant, uncivilized, and primitive gooks, zipperheads, ragheads, camel jockeys or sandniggers (each war has it's own epithets, but they all mean the same thing), the more likely it becomes that you'll critically underestimate their resilience, resourcefulness and ingenuity and the limits of your own ability to project power, and according to Murphy, this will probably occur at the worst possible moment.

It's always been infuriatingly difficult to bomb an idea (which all religious and political movements are) and much easier to marginalize them instead. However, the latter requires a degree of imagination, forsight, and well...intelligence that seems to escape the grasp of our leaders. The former is so much easier, it doesn't give us a headache trying to understand the nuances, doesn't challenge us to examine our own role in the conflict, and of course is so much more entertaining to watch on the evening news.

Militant Islamists aren't lunatics. They are, like everyone else, motivated by an agenda.

Militant Islam isn't monolithic either; the objectives of these agendas may vary wildly between Shi'a, Sunni, Arab Nationalists, and others. Jingoistic platitudes like "They hate us for our freedoms" or "They're all committed to the utter destruction of Israel" are singularly unhelpful in understanding their motivations, and by extension, how to unmotivate them. If the past half-century of the Middle East suggests anything, it's that brute force, brutality, and barbarism not only doesn't work, but is spectacularly counterproductive, inflaming blinding rage and hatred (the inverse of common sense and accommodation), deepening resolve, and compelling all true believers (in either a nation or holy book, it's all pretty much the same) to circle the wagons, dig in their heels, and rally 'round the flag, pretty much like people everywhere else throughout history in similar circumstances. Sadly, history teaches us something else; this invariably provides the perfect soapbox for manipulative and opportunistic evil little men with agenda's of their own, who in better times would have remained in perfect obscurity.

You want to "defang" Hezbollah, Hammas, et al.? You must understand what motivates them. The hard part, of course, is that any impartial and dispassionate analysis of their agenda will reveal that at least some of their grievances are perfectly legitimate, which in turn requires the character, integrity, and moral courage to admit that you're wrong and say you're sorry; qualities so often sorely lacking in the aforementioned evil little men. Some of Hezbollah's stated conditions for peace; Israel has strewn land mines across southern Lebanon, and since their last futile invasion, has never provided maps so the Lebanese can remove what is a completely pointless and random threat to their people, for years and years, indiscriminately killing Hezbollah, inquisitive playing children, and wandering goats with deadly impartiality. Perhaps most important, Israel would like the integrity of their borders respected. Yeah, well, so would everyone else, including Lebanon. It's hard to credibly claim any right to self-defense and territorial integrity when you routinely violate precisely those same rights of your neighbors. No more overflights, shellings, reprisal air attacks, and incursions to kidnap or assassinate Lebanese or Palestinians. It's profoundly unrealistic (and patently unfair) to demand that Hezbollah and Hammas stay on their side of the fence while Israel blithely refuses to commit do the same.

Of course, no discussion of minding or mending of fences can take place without some discussion of where the property lines are drawn. Israel still occupies areas of Lebanon they've occupied since their last invasion; Shebaa Farms, not for it's strategic importance or that it in any way contributes to the security of Israel, but simply because it's good farmland. But most importantly is they key issue, unchanged since 1967; UN Resolution 242. The Arab League and Saudi Arabia have both at various times exacted a promise from Hezbollah, Fatah, Hammas and others to recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for Israel complying with international law and withdrawing from the Golan, West Bank, and Gaza; land (which de jure isn't theirs to begin with) for peace. Sounds rather simple (not to mention fair), doesn't it? A modern day Warsaw Ghetto in Gaza will never substitute for Palestinian statehood.

You want Lebanon to "restrain" Hezbollah? Perhaps rather than encouraging Israel to blast the only successful moderate Arab democracy friendly to the West into bloody stinking rubble the U.S. could've enabled them to do exactly that; they sure as hell weren't equipped to do so with their antique T-55's and five helicopters. After all, carrots often do seem so much more appetizing when pared with sticks, but such is the nature of myopathy, missed opportunities, and the cognitive limitations of evil little men.
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Raven 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 08:55 AM
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LIke Mac I normally don't post in this forum.

But I have dealt with bullies all my life and have found that coming to an understanding with them has nothing to do with understanding where they are coming from or motivates them beyond the fact that they are cowards. They are motivated by hate, power, selfishness, etc.... whether you see that or not. Basic human stuff.

Emmett I am not saying that Israel is perfect but you do not seem to be able to understand where they are coming from.

Who bloodied whose nose first is relevant.

If calling the Hezbollah vermin for how they opperate is demonizing them in your view so be it. I don't care who they are, anyone who operates to promote an agenda as they do, whether Nazi, Israeli or US in nationality has to be classified as vermin, coward, etc ....

Here is a lesson from history that is relevant to anyone who thinks that withdrawing support from Irael and sitting idlely by is the answer to these Meglamaniacs.

Martin Niemoeller was a Protestant pastor born January 14, 1892, in Lippstadt, Westphalia. He was a submarine commander in World War I. He was anti-communist and initially supported the Nazis until the church was made subordinate to state authority.

In 1934, he started the Pastors’ Emergency League to defend the church. Hitler became angered by Niemoeller’s rebellious sermons and popularity and had him arrested on July 1, 1937. He was tried the following year and sentenced to seven months in prison and fined.

After his release, Hitler ordered him arrested again. he spent the next seven years in concentration camps in “protective custody.“ He was liberated in 1945 and was elected President of the Protestant church in Hesse and Nassau in 1947. He held the title until 1964. He was also a President of the World Council of Churches in the 1960’s.

Niemoeller was a pacifist who spoke out against nuclear weapons. He is best known for his powerful statement about the failure of Germans to speak out against the Nazis:

“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”


The Israelies have not been involved in expansionism beyond response. History is clear about this. At the same time they have given up holdings in recent history that seems to have netted them the benefit of being viewed as weaklings by their Arab neighbors.

It seems that they only thing that will make the "anti Irael bullys" go away is for Irael to go away, and then who will they target next?

Sure we all want peace (or at least most of us smile.gif) but peace at what cost? Enslavement, being continually terrorized. Unfortunately the path to an acceptable peace is more often than not struggle or war.

We could have had peace with the Nazis if we had only been willing to appease them and we would never have had WW II.

Something to consider

Mikel
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Emmet 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 09:44 AM
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Who bloodied whose nose first is relevant.


At this point in the game, why?

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If calling the Hezbollah vermin for how they opperate is demonizing them in your view so be it. I don't care who they are...


And precisely how is that helpful?

QUOTE
The Israelies have not been involved in expansionism beyond response. History is clear about this.


Golan Heights, West Bank, Palestinian Jerusalem, Gaza, Shebaa Farms. The United Nations and I beg to differ.

QUOTE
At the same time they have given up holdings in recent history that seems to have netted them the benefit of being viewed as weaklings by their Arab neighbors.


Gaza is an arid strip of land which is now one of the most densely populated on earth, with a poverty rate over 80% which is routinely shelled, bombed, rocketed, invaded and bulldozed. The comparison to 1942 Warsaw isn't empty hyperbole. As for "being viewed as weaklings by their Arab neighbors", Israel is the 5th most powerful war machine in the world, with the second largest fleet of F-16 fighter-bombers in the world, and nuclear weapons. I may ascribe many things to Arabs, but moronic stupidity certainly isn't one of them.

QUOTE
Here is a lesson from history that is relevant to anyone who thinks that withdrawing support from Irael and sitting idlely by is the answer to these Meglamaniacs.

“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”


“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Muslims, but I was not a Muslim so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”

One of my favorite quotes, but I don't think you at all comprehend the point Niemoeller was trying to make.

QUOTE
We could have had peace with the Nazis if we had only been willing to appease them and we would never have had WW II.


No, we could have avoided WWII if we had paid a bit more attention to what was happening in the Weimar Republic, and worked to marginalize and ultimately render National Socialism irrelevant by facilitating and encouraging elements that would have lead to a democratic Germany. By 1939 that opportunity had long passed.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 10:30 AM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 31-Jul-2006, 09:44 AM)

Golan Heights, West Bank, Palestinian Jerusalem, Gaza, Shebaa Farms. The United Nations and I beg to differ.

. . . .

No, we could have avoided WWII if we had paid a bit more attention to what was happening in the Weimar Republic, and worked to marginalize and ultimately render National Socialism irrelevant by facilitating and encouraging elements that would have lead to a democratic Germany. By 1939 that opportunity had long passed.

1. And the whole blithering Sinai.

2. I dunno about that one, Emmet, though in hindsight it certainly might have been a turning factor if conditions and intervention attitudes had been attuned to it -- Who would "we" have been? On what standing might it have been done by the US in particular? the League of Nations was set up to head off conflicts between nations, not political tendencies within them, and Congress nixed the US joining it even though Wilson initiated it, because Congress wanted to strictly limit US involvement in any international affairs, especially wars, after WWI. What happened to Weimar economically had its parallel here too with the Great Depression, another reason not to extend our resources at the time. Politically, Weimar was never strong, and when it went soft there were many likely contenders; that 1932 election itself was a very close and dirty thing -- Hitler almost did not get in. The closest competitors were pretty far left, and I don't know that the US would have had any truck with that, post WWI.

In any case, I think it wasn't til later, post-WWII and getting into the Cold War, that the US began to take any strong active interest in dangerous leaders or regimes being put into power at the election stage, and to take a hand in fostering or skewing such elections. But I may be wrong.

Raven -- there was no basis of confidence or trust in trying to appease the Nazis. Look how they screwed the Russians with the Ribbentrop pact.
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Raven 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 10:39 AM
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I don't know how to break out quotes from you Emmet so I will do it this way.

At this point in the game why?

If you had ever been sucker punched you would not have to ask this question.

And precisely how is that helpful?

Not saying it helps anything, but it doesn't hurt either. Just calling a spade a spade

Golan Heights, West Bank, Palestinian Jerusalem, Gaza, Shebaa Farms. The United Nations and I beg to differ.

Exactly my point, Israel response to attacks intiated by Arab nations. This would not have been tolerated by US, UN etc... you seem to have selective history distorder. Case in point if you bloody Israel's nose they are going to hit back. YOu can't forget about the intitial attack years or weeks later and just say how is that relavent.

Gaza is an arid strip of land which is now one of the most densely populated on earth, with a poverty rate over 80% which is routinely shelled, bombed, rocketed, invaded and bulldozed. The comparison to 1942 Warsaw isn't empty hyperbole. As for "being viewed as weaklings by their Arab neighbors", Israel is the 5th most powerful war machine in the world, with the second largest fleet of F-16 fighter-bombers in the world, and nuclear weapons. I may ascribe many things to Arabs, but moronic stupidity certainly isn't one of them.

I think you need to understand the bully mindset a bit more. It is difficult not being a bully to understand their culture. Much the same as it is difficult to understand the mind of a theif if you are not one. They wanted Gaza back regardless of how worthless you think the piece of land is.

If you think inciting Irael to attack is moronic stupidity, then if the shoe fits.....smile.gif

One of my favorite quotes, but I don't think you at all comprehend the point Niemoeller was trying to make.

I would beg to differ and contend that you do not have any comprehension of the point being made. It is obvious that the only thing necessary for evil men to succeed is for good men to do nothing.

No, we could have avoided WWII if we had paid a bit more attention to what was happening in the Weimar Republic, and worked to marginalize and ultimately render National Socialism irrelevant by facilitating and encouraging elements that would have lead to a democratic Germany. By 1939 that opportunity had long passed.

This begs the issue. Hindsite is 20 20 unfortunately you can never exercise hindsite on history. But I don't think that you at all comprehend the point that I was trying to make..... or do you want to understand the point?

I'm not sure what your emotional involvement is with this issue Emmett, I suppose it could be an idealistic lack of association with reality or lack of certain life experiences. You seem intelligent and educated on one hand but then you draw conclusions based on evidence that are similar to observing the Sun as it crosses the sky and coming to the conclusion that the Sun orbits the earth. A seemingly logical assumption that upon closer scrutiny reveals that one did not look at the big picture with total objectivity.

BTW I have no ax to grind in this issue as far as Israel is concerned but if I see something that is obviously wrong I usually speak up wink.gif

All the best

Cheers

Mikel
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