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Dogshirt 
Posted: 09-Feb-2009, 10:50 PM
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Imagine the shoe being on the other foot...and people saying, the "Laktoa" people don't have a right to be a nation. Most would not say that...most are saddened by the injustice done to native American tribes. There are unfortunately, many destructive natures (in word, thought, and in deed) present in this world...don't be one of them. Israel has every right to live in a world of peace--as do peaceful Muslims.

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One does not go back to a house they once lived in and demand the current tenents to leave simply because they USED to live there. They LEFT!!!


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Patch 
Posted: 10-Feb-2009, 01:47 AM
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Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis "took" their present land. It was given to them at the direction of the "free world" community after WW2. Israel has only been a country for about 60 years and Palestine about half that time.

Israel is now, and for some time has been, a nuclear world power. They, just like us, will use it if faced with the eminent destruction of our respective countries.

Land has been seized and lost in war for thousands of years and that will continue until we humans no longer exist. One only has to look at a world map from the early 1900's to see the changes in just a century.

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stoirmeil 
Posted: 10-Feb-2009, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 09-Feb-2009, 10:50 PM)

One does not go back to a house they once lived in and demand the current tenents to leave simply because they USED to live there. They LEFT!!!


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Who "left"?

The intelligentsia and the people of influence among the Jews were killed or expelled and sent into exile by the Romans after the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD; the Jewish farmers and peasants stayed there and never left, suffering one imperial or colonial occupation after another for many centuries, along with other people on the land. Or perhaps you mean the Palestinians left -- fled, actually -- in 1948, after the attempted pan-arab war of annihilation on the Jews didn't quite pan out?
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gwenlee 
Posted: 10-Feb-2009, 11:04 AM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 09-Feb-2009, 11:50 PM)
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Imagine the shoe being on the other foot...and people saying, the "Laktoa" people don't have a right to be a nation. Most would not say that...most are saddened by the injustice done to native American tribes. There are unfortunately, many destructive natures (in word, thought, and in deed) present in this world...don't be one of them. Israel has every right to live in a world of peace--as do peaceful Muslims.

Jillian



One does not go back to a house they once lived in and demand the current tenents to leave simply because they USED to live there. They LEFT!!!


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They didn't leave, if you know history they were dispersed after several Jewish up rising against Rome. A small country against mighty Rome.
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gwenlee 
Posted: 10-Feb-2009, 11:06 AM
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Sorry Stoirmeil I didn't mean to repeat you. I left my computer and just got back
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IrishBeachLassie 
Posted: 23-Feb-2009, 10:49 PM
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Patch,
Wow, I am ashamed, I didn't know that, I'm speaking of your post on Feb. 10th; you are right, your statement is an eye opener and something I find my self not thinking about often. Why? The big question, why do we have to fight for land. I'll probably die asking that same question; religion against religion, that is not what was meant to be!
Peace...Worldwide, Will it Ever Happen? prolly just in my little own world.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 01-Mar-2009, 12:52 PM
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Fasten your seat belts. Netanyahu is an incorrigible hawk, and Olmert won't want to go out looking like a loser either:


Israeli leader vows 'painful' response to rockets

By MATTI FRIEDMAN, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM – Prime Minister Ehud Olmert threatened painful retaliation against Gaza militants Sunday for rockets still hitting Israel, six weeks after its military halted an offensive that was supposed to have stopped them for good.

The Israeli military says Palestinians have launched over 110 rockets and mortar shells at Israel since the Gaza offensive ended Jan. 18. On Saturday, seven rockets flew from Gaza into Israel, including one that crashed into an empty high school in the coastal city of Ashkelon. There were no injuries.

When Israel halted the offensive, Olmert said, "we took into account the possibility that shooting by the terrorist organizations might resume."

The rockets, he said, "will be answered with a painful, harsh, strong and uncompromising response from the security forces." Olmert spoke at the weekly Cabinet meeting. The military will decide on a response, government officials said afterward.

Many Israelis believe the Gaza operation ended too soon, leaving Hamas in power in Gaza and seemingly undaunted. One of them is hard-line Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's incoming prime minister, who is currently working to cobble together a new ruling coalition and is likely to replace Olmert within weeks.
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Camac
Posted: 01-Mar-2009, 12:59 PM
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stoirmeil;

I know this might not sound to good but I for one am sick and tired of hearing about Isreal and Palestine, the Near East, The Holy Land whatever. In my humble opinion they all ought to have their big shooting war and be done with it. Winner takes all.


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Antwn 
Posted: 01-Mar-2009, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 01-Mar-2009, 12:52 PM)
Many Israelis believe the Gaza operation ended too soon, leaving Hamas in power in Gaza and seemingly undaunted. One of them is hard-line Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's incoming prime minister, who is currently working to cobble together a new ruling coalition and is likely to replace Olmert within weeks.

....and the Obama administration wants to spend money to rebuild Gaza. Why not hold the money until they stop firing rockets at Israel not just throw it at them as if it were a reward or pity money? I agree the poop is gonna hit the fan again.


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stoirmeil 
Posted: 01-Mar-2009, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 01-Mar-2009, 12:59 PM)
stoirmeil;

I know this might not sound to good but I for one am sick and tired of hearing about Isreal and Palestine, the Near East, The Holy Land whatever. In my humble opinion they all ought to have their big shooting war and be done with it. Winner takes all.


Camac.

It is tiring and discouraging, isn't it, good buddy? Even "sickening" is not too strong a word. It's hard to blame anyone who feels that way, and of course I don't blame you. I can't get into that mind frame, though, at least not yet, for a lot of reasons. For one thing, I have grave doubts that anyone on the planet is ultimately going to be able to turn his or her face away from this particular conflict -- not for any mystical Armageddon potential, but for reasons strictly in the concrete here and now. "They" (whomever that includes) will not have a big shooting war in which some winner will take all without painfully involving absolutely everyone and everything else. I believe those days of isolation are gone forever.

I think part of the reason for getting so sick of it is not that IT won't quit (though it won't), but that no one and nothing seems to be able to MAKE it quit, in spite of our most earnest desires and attempts. And this is more than just deeply frustrating -- it is taking on the force of one of those horrifying experiments that show what intransigence and brutality, and also what limitations, the species seems to be heir to and capable of, that we'd rather not recognize -- or at least not have our faces jammed into so regularly. I know too that I'm saying this to a vet who has seen horrors up close that I can only read about, and that complicates it even more: even the idea that there is such a thing as potentially traumatic "news fatigue" and "information shock" is only recently starting to get the serious attention it deserves. No one has any right to tell any of you what to look at and what to let pass.

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Camac
Posted: 01-Mar-2009, 05:18 PM
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stoirmeil;

Your right of course my friend,a big fight winner take all scenario will only result in the rest of the world being pulled piecemeal into it and the result could be that mythical Armageddon fought at Meddigo. It is that I grow weary of the constant reminders that shake my faith in Humanity. Ultimately in maybe a 1000 years we will have outgrown our childishness and learned to live with one another but then again who knows we may find other reasons to pursue this game that we have become so good at and we are so good at it because we have always played it. It irks me is that the Jews and the Arabs are brother sired by the same Patriarch and worshipers of the same God (different name) yet as long as that God is in the formula there will be no peace. As I said I grow weary and long for a silent solitude.


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stoirmeil 
Posted: 01-Mar-2009, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 01-Mar-2009, 04:08 PM)
....and the Obama administration wants to spend money to rebuild Gaza. Why not hold the money until they stop firing rockets at Israel not just throw it at them as if it were a reward or pity money? I agree the poop is gonna hit the fan again.

Well, yeah. You s'pose Hilary might be able to tip him off that they won't be in shape for the grand reconstruction any time soon? dry.gif

Or maybe lightbulb.gif -- Hamas won't keep lobbing stuff from Gaza once we rebuild it, because of course we'll have to put some troops of our own there to protect our investment, and the Israelis won't trash it because it's our allied handiwork? Shee-it! Now why didn't I think of that? Oh wait -- I DID think of it. Probably not worth much then . . . no.gif

You ever hear this Arabic expression: "Bookrah mishmish"? It means "Tomorrow's apricots." Roughly equivalent to "I'll believe it when I see it", or maybe "In your dreams . . ."
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Antwn 
Posted: 01-Mar-2009, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 01-Mar-2009, 05:47 PM)
Or maybe lightbulb.gif -- Hamas won't keep lobbing stuff from Gaza once we rebuild it, because of course we'll have to put some troops of our own there to protect our investment, and the Israelis won't trash it because it's our allied handiwork?  Shee-it!  Now why didn't I think of that?  Oh wait -- I DID think of it. Probably not worth much then . . .  no.gif

You ever hear this Arabic expression:  "Bookrah mishmish"?  It means "Tomorrow's apricots." Roughly equivalent to "I'll believe it when I see it", or maybe "In your dreams . . ."

Well, just heard on CNN that Sec. Clinton is there wanting to propose $900 million in reconstruction aid with the proviso that none of it will go to Hamas. Really? How do they propose to do that if Hamas is the elected governmental authority there? Who will it go to, the bin Laden construction company? No one has explained why we're doing this. Is it just understood by everyone but me? Clue the clueless here please..... also, I agree that since Hamas is still lobbing rockets after all that's happened, I don't think US money will stop them, it will empower them, and we don't have troops to send, thus its a waste. They'll build only that which will topple so long as they continue what they're doing and we'll have paid for it!

Also, does this administration think the US is an inexaustably vast repository of cash? No, we'll be in debt for the forseeable future or bankrupt, not because of aid to Gaza but for a host of other quasi-considered expenditures in addition to this one. Throwing money at every problem guarantees nothing but one's impoverishment. Its a substitute for scrutiny, in short its rash. I had thought these people were smart, but I'm beginning to wonder whether they're just naive. If Obama inherited a huge deficit as he reminds us, where is the wisdom in increasing it, and what does the inheritance of it signify after one does increase it? I inherited a problem and want you the public to know that I did as I make it worse. Yeah, real meaningful dude. rolleyes.gif - but hey, that's another thread, yes?

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stoirmeil 
Posted: 03-Mar-2009, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 01-Mar-2009, 07:50 PM)
No one has explained why we're doing this.

I dunno -- Gaza City is smaller and cheaper to repair than Baghdad? Virtuous high because someone else broke it and we're only fixing it?
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Antwn 
Posted: 03-Mar-2009, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 03-Mar-2009, 04:53 PM)
QUOTE (Antwn @ 01-Mar-2009, 07:50 PM)
No one has explained why we're doing this.

I dunno -- Gaza City is smaller and cheaper to repair than Baghdad? Virtuous high because someone else broke it and we're only fixing it?

Definitely easier to fix than Baghdad. Feel good money we don't have. I learned today that the figure is now over $5 billion. Lets see, we're fighting two wars, the new budget will put us $1.5 trillion in debt and we're rebuilding Gaza with nothing but Ms. Hilary's assurances that not dime of that loot will go to Hamas. Wonder how long it will take other countries to figure out how to get US funing in this manner....especially those with terrorist ties. Do the words "America's interests" occur to this administration's foreign policy team?
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