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Dogshirt 
Posted: 26-Jul-2006, 08:06 PM
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No, I'll not change my mind. I WILL however agree to didagree and move on.


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 05:07 AM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 26-Jul-2006, 08:06 PM)
No, I'll not change my mind. I WILL however agree to didagree and move on.


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No problem. I'll do the same. thumbs_up.gif


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Emmet 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 04:40 PM
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The Israeli Defense Force is the fifth most powerful war machine in the world. Despite comprising only .001 per cent of the world’s population, Israel receives one third of all American foreign aid. They receive the most American military aid of any country on earth, and are the largest buyer of American made weapons. Those are American made M109 155mm self-propelled howitzers firing M110A1 WP white phosphorous incendiary shells and M483A1 DPICM cluster munitions into Lebanese villages, and those are American made F-16 fighter-bombers dropping American made GBU-28 5,000 lb laser-guided bombs upon residential suburbs of Beirut. Israel’s indiscriminate attack on Lebanon unequivocally constitutes a crime against humanity pursuant to the UN Charter, Articles 33, 48, and 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, and Article 7 of the International Criminal Court (ICC) Statutes of 1998, differing from Lidice and Guernica only in scope. They are perpetrating this atrocity with American made weapons paid for with American taxpayers dollars under the diplomatic cover of the American Secretary of State and American Ambassador to the UN and with the inane cheerleading of the American President and American Congress. If indeed these are the elected leaders of a free democracy simply expressing the will of the people, by extension that makes every American citizen fully complicit as a war criminal.

Words simply cannot express the depth of my grief for the people of Iraq, Lebanon, and Palestine, or the depth of my shame and revulsion for the United States.


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haynes9 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 04:46 PM
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Emmet, I share your grief for the innocent civilians. How about the actions of Hamas and Hezzbolah? Any comments on these fine humanitarian organizations? Is Israel entirely to blame for the woes in the Middle East.

Not trying to be contentious. I just appreciate an open look at both sides involved in this conflict.


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 06:53 PM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 27-Jul-2006, 04:40 PM)
elThe Israeli Defense Force is the fifth most powerful war machine in the world. Despite comprising only .001 per cent of the world’s population, Israel receives one third of all American foreign aid. They receive the most American military aid of any country on earth, and are the largest buyer of American made weapons. Those are American made M109 155mm self-propelled howitzers firing M110A1 WP white phosphorous incendiary shells and M483A1 DPICM cluster munitions into Lebanese villages, and those are American made F-16 fighter-bombers dropping American made GBU-28 5,000 lb laser-guided bombs upon residential suburbs of Beirut. Israel’s indiscriminate attack on Lebanon unequivocally constitutes a crime against humanity pursuant to the UN Charter, Articles 33, 48, and 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, and Article 7 of the International Criminal Court (ICC) Statutes of 1998, differing from Lidice and Guernica only in scope. They are perpetrating this atrocity with American made weapons paid for with American taxpayers dollars under the diplomatic cover of the American Secretary of State and American Ambassador to the UN and with the inane cheerleading of the American President and American Congress. If indeed these are the elected leaders of a free democracy simply expressing the will of the people, by extension that makes every American citizen fully complicit as a war criminal.

Words simply cannot express the depth of my grief for the people of Iraq, Lebanon, and Palestine, or the depth of my shame and revulsion for the United States.

Well I agree that the innocient have to suffer but like I said before, if a majority of the Palistinians are againt terrorism and want peace, then why did they elect Hammas? Also if Lebenon wants peace and hate terrorism then why don't the rise up against Hesbula? It's because most Muslims HATE Israel and feel that there can be no peace without victory. If you don't believe me well how many people do you know from the Middle East who have lived through it personally? LONG LIVE ISRAEL. I Praise God we the USA can do our part to help Israel. On that note just WHO started this recient crisis? Israel? NO Hesbula and the psycopath Muslims who crossed into Israel and abducted the Israeli soldiers. THEY STARTED IT. Israel has always come out the winner and they will this time as well. Just watch. God Bless America for helping Israel in the past and I look forward to seeing us help them in the future.
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 06:56 PM
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thumbs_up.gif Also, the biggest mistake the USA could ever make is to stop supporting Israel. That would truly be the death to the USA for real! sad.gif
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 07:15 PM
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Why is it onle terrorism when it goes against your belife? Isreal is the biggest terrorist in the world. As you yourself said "Burn down the house to kill a rat."
And just what benifit do we reap from backing Isreal besides a target on ALL our backs? I'm pretty sure Isreal is about to cut their own throat this time.


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stoirmeil 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 17-Jul-2006, 03:24 PM)

I don't know exactly what Bush's story is for his reluctance to take a firmer stance on what is clearly overkill escalation, though I can guess -- but there has been a history of American support for the state of Israel from day one.  Part of it is a tremendous post-WWII aftermath of guilt that's not only American; but some of it is the peculiarly American evangelical viewpoint that this is the holy land and these are the chosen people, and abandoning them is against some kind of divine plan.  (Notice the biblical quality of the phrase used by one of the posters above:  Israel should "rebuke her enemies.")  Israelis waffle between finding this a true nuisance and pragmatically taking advantage of it, but they do not subscribe to it, and they also don't like depending on what is essentially a lofty, romanticized vision from America's position of privilege that they can't always afford to comply with. 


I said this before and I will say it again. I don't think anyone who holds this biblically ordained standpoint is in a position to see this brutal Israeli overkill in a realistic light. Sorry guys -- I know this is sensitive. But this is not the conquest of Canaan here. Or even 1967.

Emmet -- good to see you man, it's been yonks -- I haven't been so tied in knots over anything for years as I am now over this, with fractured loyalty and human rights outrage. You are right, and I may bleed to death to say it, but you are right.
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Emmet 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 07:53 PM
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"Emmet, I share your grief for the innocent civilians. How about the actions of Hamas and Hezzbolah? Is Israel entirely to blame for the woes in the Middle East."

Israel routinely violates the territorial sovereignty of other nations with photoreconnaissance flights (and sometimes bombings; for example, on the night of July 22, 2002, an Israeli F-16 dropped a one ton bomb onto an apartment complex in Gaza City, killing Hamas military wing leader Salah Shehadeh and 16 others, of whom 15 were civilians, including 9 children, and wounding over one hundred others), and routinely mounts incursions into Lebanon, Gaza, and elsewhere, kidnapping and assassinating anyone they perceive as a threat (there are 9,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, including women & children, incarcerated in Israel without even a semblance of due process). Hamas (a democratically elected government, by the way...or is democracy only OK if they elect people you approve of?) captures one Israeli POW (if they weren't POW's then, they most certainly are now) and Israel bombs and invades Gaza; Hezbollah captures two more, and Israel bombs Lebanon, to quote an Israeli general, "back 20 years" (does anyone really believe that this was a spur-of-the-moment "rescue operation" that could have possibly been launched without months (or more likely years) of advance logistical planning?), destroying to date 85% of roadways, 90% of bridges, schools, airports, hospitals, many, many apartment blocks, fuel storage facilities, power plants, port facilities, water treatment facilities, UN observation posts (which had been there since 1979; you can't argue that the Israelis didn't know it was there), at least 3 ambulances (one has an Israeli shell hole dead center in the red cross on the roof), a relief convoy, and an International Red Cross clinic, and killing at least 600 Lebanese, mostly civilians, one third of them children (that estimate is undoubtedly low, not counting bodies buried beneath the rubble). Hezbollah retaliates to the Israeli onslaught (after the bombing started!) by launching hundreds of WWII-era Katyusha rockets into Israel, killing 15 civilians; inexcusable, to be sure, but hardly comparable, unless of course an Arab or Muslim life is not of comperable value to an Israeli or Jewish one.
Now Israel is bellicosely insisting on Lebanon's full compliance with UN Resolution 1559, when Israel has steadfastly ignored UN Resolutions 233, 234, 237, 242 (especially 242!), 248, 250, 251, 252, 259, 267, 271, 298, 338, 339, 381, 425, 446, 452, 465, 468, 469, 471, 476, 478, 484, 508, 509, 513, 515, 516, 517, 518, 520, 521, 573, 592, 605, 607, 608, 611, 636, 641, 672, 673, 681, 694, 726, 799, 904, 1073, & 1322? What about UN Resolution 1674; responsibility of signatories to protect civilian populations against genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity?

Evidently, what's good for the goose simply doesn't apply to the gander.

Yeah; it is Israel's fault. The root of the problem isn't 1559, it's 242. There's been ample lost opportunities for peace, but Sharon and his ilk have repeatedly demonstrated that they don't want peace. Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 killed 18,000 Lebanese civilians, resulted in the massacres of hundreds of unarmed and defenseless Palestinian civilians at Sabra and Shatila (the PLO had already evacuated Beruit), years of bloody civil war, and Hezbollah. What do you think will sprout from the blood and ashes of Lebanon this time?
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 08:38 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 27-Jul-2006, 07:15 PM)
Why is it onle terrorism when it goes against your belife? Isreal is the biggest terrorist in the world. As you yourself said "Burn down the house to kill a rat."
And just what benifit do we reap from backing Isreal besides a target on ALL our backs? I'm pretty sure Isreal is about to cut their own throat this time.


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Well think what you want but if you want to REALL see the death of the USA, it will be the day the US stops supporting Israel. Israel is going NOWWHERE! biggrin.gif
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 08:55 PM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 27-Jul-2006, 07:53 PM)
"Emmet, I share your grief for the innocent civilians. How about the actions of Hamas and Hezzbolah? Is Israel entirely to blame for the woes in the Middle East."

Israel routinely violates the territorial sovereignty of other nations with photoreconnaissance flights (and sometimes bombings; for example, on the night of July 22, 2002, an Israeli F-16 dropped a one ton bomb onto an apartment complex in Gaza City, killing Hamas military wing leader Salah Shehadeh and 16 others, of whom 15 were civilians, including 9 children, and wounding over one hundred others), and routinely mounts incursions into Lebanon, Gaza, and elsewhere, kidnapping and assassinating anyone they perceive as a threat (there are 9,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, including women & children, incarcerated in Israel without even a semblance of due process). Hamas (a democratically elected government, by the way...or is democracy only OK if they elect people you approve of?) captures one Israeli POW (if they weren't POW's then, they most certainly are now) and Israel bombs and invades Gaza; Hezbollah captures two more, and Israel bombs Lebanon, to quote an Israeli general, "back 20 years" (does anyone really believe that this was a spur-of-the-moment "rescue operation" that could have possibly been launched without months (or more likely years) of advance logistical planning?), destroying to date 85% of roadways, 90% of bridges, schools, airports, hospitals, many, many apartment blocks, fuel storage facilities, power plants, port facilities, water treatment facilities, UN observation posts (which had been there since 1979; you can't argue that the Israelis didn't know it was there), at least 3 ambulances (one has an Israeli shell hole dead center in the red cross on the roof), a relief convoy, and an International Red Cross clinic, and killing at least 600 Lebanese, mostly civilians, one third of them children (that estimate is undoubtedly low, not counting bodies buried beneath the rubble). Hezbollah retaliates to the Israeli onslaught (after the bombing started!) by launching hundreds of WWII-era Katyusha rockets into Israel, killing 15 civilians; inexcusable, to be sure, but hardly comparable, unless of course an Arab or Muslim life is not of comperable value to an Israeli or Jewish one.
Now Israel is bellicosely insisting on Lebanon's full compliance with UN Resolution 1559, when Israel has steadfastly ignored UN Resolutions 233, 234, 237, 242 (especially 242!), 248, 250, 251, 252, 259, 267, 271, 298, 338, 339, 381, 425, 446, 452, 465, 468, 469, 471, 476, 478, 484, 508, 509, 513, 515, 516, 517, 518, 520, 521, 573, 592, 605, 607, 608, 611, 636, 641, 672, 673, 681, 694, 726, 799, 904, 1073, & 1322? What about UN Resolution 1674; responsibility of signatories to protect civilian populations against genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity?

Evidently, what's good for the goose simply doesn't apply to the gander.

Yeah; it is Israel's fault. The root of the problem isn't 1559, it's 242. There's been ample lost opportunities for peace, but Sharon and his ilk have repeatedly demonstrated that they don't want peace. Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 killed 18,000 Lebanese civilians, resulted in the massacres of hundreds of unarmed and defenseless Palestinian civilians at Sabra and Shatila (the PLO had already evacuated Beruit), years of bloody civil war, and Hezbollah. What do you think will sprout from the blood and ashes of Lebanon this time?

The bottom line is Hesbula started the Lebenon incident this time. Like I said before, Hammas was democraticaly elected because they are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. This only shows that these Arab Muslims don't want peace. What you don't get is these people don't think like we do here. It's a totally different mindset these Muslims have. I KNOW! Trust me. If hesbula and hammas put down their weapons, there'd be peace but if Israel drops its weapons there'd be NO Israel. What Israel does is in it's own defense and the people they go after purposly put innicient people around to creat collateral damage. Golda Mier once said to the Palistinians, "I'll forgive you for killing my children but I'll never forgive you for making me kill yours". When was the last time you heard a march in Israel calling death to Muslims? However how many times from Muslims have you hear death to Israel. Do you know anyone personally who has lived over there since Israels birth? Do you?

I'll end with this, I'd die before I EVER denounce Isreal. They're Gods people and if I sound like a radical fine but you all will see! Yes you all will biggrin.gif
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 09:06 PM
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By the way Emmet, as a former Firefighter I hope you havn't forgotten the 343 fallen commrads who were murdered by Muslim extremist on 9/11 who's blood now cries out!
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 09:10 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 27-Jul-2006, 07:15 PM)
Why is it onle terrorism when it goes against your belife? Isreal is the biggest terrorist in the world. As you yourself said "Burn down the house to kill a rat."
And just what benifit do we reap from backing Isreal besides a target on ALL our backs? I'm pretty sure Isreal is about to cut their own throat this time.


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So what your're saying we need to give into these psycos in the Middle East and they'll just leave us alone? If you think that all I'll tell you is that I'm glad your're not the majority. Muslims for the most part can't be trusted. Even if the US did stop supporting Israel, they'd still hate the US with a passion.
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Emmet 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 09:37 PM
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"If hesbula and hammas put down their weapons, there'd be peace but if Israel drops its weapons there'd be NO Israel."

Hezbollah has an estimated 600 full-time fighters and another 3,000-4,500 veterans available for mobilization, and perhaps 15,000-30,000 reservists in volunteer militias.
13,000 WWII era 22mm and 107mm Katyusha rockets, of which they've fired (or Israel has destroyed) over half, which has killed seven people, making it perhaps one of the most useless and ineffective weapons systems since we first started throwing rocks at each other. They are rumored to have Iranian-made Fajr-3 and the Fajr-5 rockets. A 220mm rocket with a 90kg warhead hit Haifa killing eight people. They are also rumored to have Zelzal-2 ballistic missiles believed capable of carrying a 600kg warhead to a maximum range of 200km. If they did, they were apparently content to allow them to be destroyed on the ground, because they haven't fired any off.
Lebanon's army has 75,000 troops, 350 medium and light tanks; mostly WWII era T-54 & 55's, and 30 UH-1 Hueys, with no fixed wing aircraft. The Lebanese Army has remained noncombatants and hasn't killed anyone up to this point, although that hasn't stopped the Israelis from bombing their barracks, airfields, and other facilities, killing many of them in the process.

Israel has 175,000 troops and 450,000 reserves.
3,800 tanks, including M-1 and M60 tanks made in the USA.
15,000 heavy artillery pieces, including M108 105mm and M109 155mm self-propelled howitzers made in the USA.
2,000 combat aircraft, mostly F-16 and F-15 variants, plus 25 nuclear capable F-15Es (remember, Israel has the bomb); about 80 older F-4 Phantoms made in the USA (Under the Arms Control and Disarmament Act, American military aid supposedly can only be used for defensive, not offensive, operations). While Israel claims that Iranian hands are all over the bombs and training of Hezbollah and its arms, undeniably U.S. hands are all over Israeli bombs and munitions and war machines; a fact not likely to be forgotten by any Arab or Muslim.

Given these numbers, how many seriously think that anybody in the region represents a strategic threat to Israel; particularly Hezbollah with their antique Katyusha peashooters? Between Israel and Lebanon, who represents an existential threat to the other?

" They're Gods people and if I sound like a radical fine..."

Not radical at all; just your average, banal, garden-variety religious bigot and racist.

"By the way Emmet, as a former Firefighter I hope you havn't forgotten the 343 fallen commrads who were murdered by Muslim extremist on 9/11 who's blood now cries out!"

That's a non sequitur. 9/11 was perpetrated by Al Queda (not Hesbollah, Hammas, Lebanon, et al.), 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi Arabian (our allies), none were Lebanese. According to fatwa's issued by Osama bin Laden himself, the attacks were motivated by (among other things) America's unstinting support for Israel in the occupation of the occupied territories and oppression of the Palestinian people, and the invasion of Lebanon in 1982, which are actually legitimate grievances. Their blood no more "cries out" for the destruction of Lebanon, Palestine, or Iraq than it does for the destruction of Kansas.
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 27-Jul-2006, 09:58 PM
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Some people just seem to understand that "God" has absolutely nothing to do with the murder being perpatrated by Isreal!


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