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InRi 
Posted: 03-Jan-2009, 06:31 AM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 03-Jan-2009, 06:29 AM)
We have lost a few sizeable posts here, when the site was down a little while ago.

I'm missing one of mine too...
I'll try to reconstruct it. Basically I wrote:

Unfortunately the occurences in the Gaza stripe "only" the continue of a long lasting conflict in this region - that began with the foundation of the state Israel. The history should be known...
I think too we'll hear in the future about attacks in region furthermore too.
In the past time I read a lot about fanaticism (I have to thank Antwn for the hint) and I believe to realize what's the reason for such a permanent conflict.
All sharers of this conflict are fighting (in their own kind) fanatic. The Palestinians account Israel as their "natural" enemy, which they have to fight everywhere (some Palestinian groups effectes compromises with Israel) some groups fight with all means (terrorism included). On the other side is standing Israel which defend its right to exist with all means too.
QUOTE (MachinegunKelley @ 02-Jan-2009, 03:41 AM)
Killing terrorists is in everyone's best interest.

I think the answer to this problem can't be so simple. I agree that anybody should have deals with terrorists. But on the other hand even these terrorists are supported by a great part of the palestinian population - and the new blood is prepared for this fight. As is known Israel started to kill the terrorist leaders in the past time - the result always was a new wave of attacks and violence...
To kill terrorists only create martyrs but doesn't stop the terrorism and also the conflict - and by the way who should to kill? active terrorists only? the following generation too? all people they support the terrorists? - No, I think this can't be the answer - this hit a lot of innocence people again.
An able answer seems me to stop the fanaticism in this conflict (especially inside the palestinian population, but also in parts of the Israel government). Although I don't know how to do this, but I know to solve problems works only by cool heads but not by hot hearts. This should know (or realize) the leaders of both sharers and should accept help from outside finally.

Ingo


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Emmet 
Posted: 03-Jan-2009, 10:58 AM
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GAZA GUERNICA

An occupying power is obliged to follow the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, which protects the civilian population. The United Nations Security Council held in 1979 that the Fourth Convention does apply to the territories seized by Israel in 1967 (in violation of U.N. Resolution 242; Google "Al Nekbah"). Article 48 of the protocol is clear that Israel, as an occupying power, has obligations: "The Parties to the conflict shall at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objectives."

With their blockade of Gaza, the Israelis have created their own Warsaw Ghetto. 75% of Gazans are malnourished. 46% of all Gazan children suffer from acute anemia. About 45% of children in Gaza have iron deficiency from a lack of fruit and vegetables, and 18% have stunted growth. The U.N. special envoy for human rights, former Princeton University law professor Richard Falk (who is Jewish), has condemned the collective punishment of the 1.5 million Palestinians confined in Gaza as "a flagrant and massive violation of international humanitarian law as laid down in Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention." and "a crime against humanity."

Hamas, the legitimate and democratically elected government in Palestine, has repeatedly proposed long-term truces with Israel and offered to negotiate a permanent end to hostilities, including explicitly recognizing the right of Israel to exist. During the last year, Hamas has upheld the truce although Israel refused to ease the blockade. It was Israel that, on Nov. 4, violated the truce and killed six Palestinians. It was only then that Hamas resumed lobbing their pathetic spitballs at Israel, killing no one.

Since 2005 Hamas has fired some 6,300 primitive, home-made rockets from Gaza at Israel, killing 10 people. In just the past seven days, using American made F-16 fighter bombers of the 4th largest air force in the world, Israel have reduced the Gaza Strip, one of the most densely populated tracts of land in the world, to rubble and killed at least 435 defenseless Palestinians, who have no air force, no air defense artillery, no army, and no navy. This isn't war; it's wholesale murder.

Since September 29, 2000, a total of 1,062 Israelis and no fewer than 4,876 Palestinians have been killed in the conflict.

Since September 29, 2000, approximately 123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians whereas 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis.

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel, without trial or legal recourse.

NONE OF THIS WOULD BE POSSIBLE WITHOUT YOU, THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER.

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $ $15,800, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia.
For 1997, the U.S. gave Israel $6.72 billion: $6.194 billion in foreign aid and $526 million from agencies such as the Department of Commerce, the U.S. Information Agency and the Pentagon. The $6.72 billion figure does not include loan guarantees and annual compound interest totaling $3.122 billion the U.S. pays on money it borrowed to give to Israel (we're broke, remember? Our national debt: 10.5 trillion dollars!). It does not include the cost to U.S. taxpayers of IRS tax exemptions that donors can claim when they donate money to Israeli charities. More than $1.5 billion in private U.S. funds go to Israel annually. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax-deductible contributions to a foreign government does not exist with any other country. This ultimately costs other U.S. tax payers $280 million to $390 million. Nor do these figures include short and long-term commercial loans from U.S. banks, which have been as high as $1 billion annually in recent years. All past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress. Between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and never repaid. When grants, loans, interest and tax deductions are added together, our relationship with Israel cost U.S. taxpayers over $10 billion in 1997 alone. All told; half of the money America spends abroad goes to Israel.
Since 1949 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $83.205 billion. The interest costs borne by U.S. tax payers on behalf of Israel are $49.937 billion, thus making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $133.132 billion. This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year ($23,240) than it has given to the average American citizen.

WE; YOU AND I, ARE COMMITTING MASS MURDER AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.
The lame excuse that we're doing it second-hand by proxy is a transparent sophistry that's entirely lost on the rest of the world, particularly the Muslim world.

The next time someone hijacks a jetliner and flies it into a building, spare me your self-righteous indignation and self pity; don't feign innocence and bleat "Why?".



"Nobody can reject or condemn the revolt of a people that has been suffering under military occupation for 45 years"
General Shlomo Gazit, former chief of Israeli military intelligence


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Patch 
Posted: 03-Jan-2009, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 02-Jan-2009, 12:10 AM)
I suppose it all depends on who you consider the terrorists.


beer_mug.gif

That pretty well sums up the entire situation.

Slàinte,    

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Antwn 
Posted: 03-Jan-2009, 06:55 PM
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Hello Emmett - What are the sources for your information please? Are the casualty figures you mention from only one side for example? What are the sources of the financial figures you listed?

Additional questions:

Hamas, the legitimate and democratically elected government in Palestine, has repeatedly proposed long-term truces with Israel and offered to negotiate a permanent end to hostilities, including explicitly recognizing the right of Israel to exist. During the last year, Hamas has upheld the truce although Israel refused to ease the blockade.

A proposed truce? Then it was not signed by both parties? If so, then why is Israel obligated to abide by it? In what way does rocket fire into Israel, however ineffective, uphold this proposed truce? Was the right to rocket fire by Hamas included in the proposals?


Since 2005 Hamas has fired some 6,300 primitive, home-made rockets from Gaza at Israel, killing 10 people. In just the past seven days, using American made F-16 fighter bombers of the 4th largest air force in the world, Israel have reduced the Gaza Strip, one of the most densely populated tracts of land in the world, to rubble and killed at least 435 defenseless Palestinians, who have no air force, no air defense artillery, no army, and no navy. This isn't war; it's wholesale murder.

According to a CNN report, Hamas had stored its munitions amongst innocent civilians, using them as human shields. Who colludes in this "wholesale murder" under such circumstances?

Yes, Israel has an effective military. Should they refrain from defending themselves until they suffer a casualty rate equal to the projected casualties caused by their retaliation. How would that be possible? Should America have refrained from entering WWII because it knew its military would cause casualties in excess of those lost at Pearl Harbor?

It does not include the cost to U.S. taxpayers of IRS tax exemptions that donors can claim when they donate money to Israeli charities. More than $1.5 billion in private U.S. funds go to Israel annually. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax-deductible contributions to a foreign government does not exist with any other country.

In what way is donation to an Israeli charity a donation to the Israeli government?

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel, without trial or legal recourse.

Why? You left that part out. What's the reason? A comparison of prisoner populations is meaningless in and of itself. Was the Israeli tried with legal representation? Exactly how many Israelis have strapped bomb belts on and blown themselves up in Gaza strip shopping malls or on buses? How many Israelis have trained Israelis to do that?

The lame excuse that we're doing it second-hand by proxy is a transparent sophistry that's entirely lost on the rest of the world, particularly the Muslim world.
You are the official spokesperson for the rest of the world then? What's your source for the supposition that the rest of the world thinks we're committing crimes against humanity? I can see that much of the Muslim world might think so.

The next time someone hijacks a jetliner and flies it into a building, spare me your self-righteous indignation and self pity; don't feign innocence and bleat "Why?".

And why don't others have as much of a right to a diatribe as you do? Has some Grand Poobah given you celestial dispensation to be spared opinions you think are odious? This is a forum after all. If righteous indignation offends you, why have you permitted your own in this demand of yours?


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Emmet 
Posted: 04-Jan-2009, 05:13 PM
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I see your point; if a 240 lb. man kidnaps, robs, rapes, and tortures a 12 year old girl, I can certainly see how, were she to have the temerity and ill manners to strike out and give him a fat lip, he would be entirely justified in beating her to death in self defense.

What Israel is doing is obscene, and America is a co-conspirator, enabler, and cheerleader.
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Antwn 
Posted: 04-Jan-2009, 07:15 PM
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Well, you made a lengthy post with a myriad of claims you're unwilling to substantiate. Thanks for the effort.....I guess. At least we know where you stand. rolleyes.gif Your omniscience must preclude error and we should take your claims and statistics at face value, huh? How silly of me.

So what do you think Israel should do Emmett? Is there a solution amid the complaints?

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stoirmeil 
Posted: 04-Jan-2009, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 04-Jan-2009, 05:13 PM)
I see your point; if a 240 lb. man kidnaps, robs, rapes, and tortures a 12 year old girl, I can certainly see how, were she to have the temerity and ill manners to strike out and give him a fat lip, he would be entirely justified in beating her to death in self defense.

What Israel is doing is obscene, and America is a co-conspirator, enabler, and cheerleader.

Oh, hell . . . sad.gif We all have to huddle under the umbrella of our national designations with rhetoric like this, Emmet. But I don't want to -- and you clearly don't want to either. You know at first hand there are many Americans who are not cheering -- you, for one -- and I can tell you there are plenty of Israelis who are tearing their hair out at what their government is doing in Gaza.

As to the analogy -- Hamas is a weasely sneak weighing much less than 240, but he's not anybody's innocent girl. Hamas is ripping the clothes off the girl and holding her in front of him to catch the abuse after he provokes the big guy. Shame to both of them if they can't figure a way to slug it out without her in the middle.
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Emmet 
Posted: 05-Jan-2009, 08:22 AM
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QUOTE
Well, you made a lengthy post with a myriad of claims you're unwilling to substantiate. Thanks for the effort.....I guess. At least we know where you stand.  Your omniscience must preclude error and we should take your claims and statistics at face value, huh? How silly of me.


It's not my purpose in life to educate or entertain fools. Clearly you have access to Google; try using research to refute an argument rather than sarcasm.

QUOTE
So what do you think Israel should do Emmett? Is there a solution amid the complaints?


U.S.
1) Freeze all foreign aid to Israel pending their compliance with UN Resolution 242, et al.
2) Freeze all military aid to Israel pursuant to the US Arms Export Control Act and Foreign Assistance Act.
3) Stop running interference for Israel in the UN Security Council.
4) Collectively tell AIPAC to go to hell. Any elected US official, whether city councilman or President, should only pledge allegiance to one country; the United States.

Israel
1) Immediately cease fire and withdraw all IDF forces from Gaza.
2) Immediately lift the blockade of Gaza.
3) Recognize Hammas as the legitimate Palestinian government, and negotiate accordingly in good faith.
4) Immediately halt all Israeli construction on the West Bank.
5) Begin plans for withdrawal from all occupied territories pursuant to UN Resolution 242, et. al.
6) Reopen negotiations with all parties to the 2002 Beirut Summit in good faith.
7) Respect the territorial integrity of it's neighbors in all respects.

Palestine
1) Immediately cease fire.
2) Allow the IDF invasion force to withdraw in good order.
3) Reopen negotiations with all parties to the 2002 Beirut Summit in good faith.
4) Respect the territorial integrity of it's neighbors in all respects.


The Beruit Summit offered an end to endless war; in exchange for Israel withdrawing to their pre-1967 borders and allowing the formation of a viable Palestinian state, with the right of return and it's capitol in East Jerusalem, all Arab signatories would formally recognize Israel's right to exist, declare the Arab-Israeli conflict to be over and normalize relations with Israel. With their raison de guerre eliminated, terrorism would eventually peter out and die as recruiting dried up and all signatories enforced the peace from within their own borders. No; it wouldn't happen overnight, but as the Belfast Accord demonstrates, it can happen, even with such mortal enemies as the IRA and the UDA.
With essentially unlimited US financial support, the US blocking any action in the UN Security Council, nuclear weapons, and the 4th largest air force in the world, including the largest fleet of F-16's outside of the US, Israel has never needed peace. Only America can change that.
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InRi 
Posted: 05-Jan-2009, 08:45 AM
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Dear combatants,
QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 04-Jan-2009, 05:10 AM)
As to the analogy -- Hamas is a weasely sneak weighing much less than 240, but he's not anybody's innocent girl. Hamas is ripping the clothes off the girl and holding her in front of him to catch the abuse after he provokes the big guy. Shame to both of them if they can't figure a way to slug it out without her in the middle.

I agree.... but the "big guy" isn't soooo innocent too...
I want to stay in speaking by images:
For weeding a pest plant it isn't enough to cut the leaves only, it's needful to pull out the roots.
The things we have to see today in the Gaza Stripe (and not only there) are "only" the leaves of this pest plant.
So I tried to find out the roots. What I found are a lot of broken promises a lot of "interests" by countries they haven't to do there anything a lot of intransigence and a lot of fanticism (that means all involved parties).
It is too much to write all these into one post, therefore I'll set some links.
The history of the Israli-Palestinian conflict
The Sykes-Picot Agreement
The British Mandate of Palestine
The Balfour Declaration of 1917
The McMahon-Hussein Correspondence
All involved parties was cheated in the past and put the blame on the other. Furthermore everyone who think that he have interests in this region is supporting one(or more) of the fighting parties (mostly out of the background)
In my opinion there are four principal points those can help to solve this conflict:
1) to stop the fanaticism in this conflict (both sides) it's essentially, that both parties begin to think by (cool) head
2) to stop all "background activities" of other parties (what they have to do there?)
3) to accept the fact that in this conflict don't exist a culprit.
4) to accept that a Israeli state is existing also a Palestine state.
I know, that is an idealized conception and I don't know how to fulfill it... May to show me someone a better way...

Ingo
P.S. I can hope only that my mistakes in English don't falsify what I mean...
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Emmet 
Posted: 05-Jan-2009, 08:54 AM
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QUOTE
You know at first hand there are many Americans who are not cheering -- you, for one -- and I can tell you there are plenty of Israelis who are tearing their hair out at what their government is doing in Gaza.


And yet it still goes on, doesn't it?

QUOTE
As to the analogy -- Hamas is a weasely sneak weighing much less than 240, but he's not anybody's innocent girl. Hamas is ripping the clothes off the girl and holding her in front of him to catch the abuse after he provokes the big guy.


Hammas is armed with small arms and primitive home-made rockets little better than big fireworks; an Israeli is more likely to be killed in a car accident or hit by lightning. Israel possesses the largest and best equipped military in the Middle East, and is armed with nuclear weapons.

Israel's blockade of Gaza is explicitly defined as a crime against humanity by the Geneva Conventions and the UN Special Envoy. Israels repeated shelling, air strikes, and incursions into Gaza were in violation of the truce to which they were signatories. Both constitute acts of war. Hammas responded with the only weapons at hand. What would you do in their place, if 75% of your population was starving, and your children suffering malnutrition, stunted growth, and measurable hearing loss from months of the incessant sonic booms of Israeli overflights? Who's provoking who?

Gaza is the most densely populated penal colony in the world; with more than 10,000 captives per square mile. Hammas isn't necessarily hiding behind civilians; with a population of 1.5 million, it's essentially unavoidable. Considering Gaza's overcrowded environment, it is beggars belief that anyone can argue with a straight face that Israel's attack is focused exclusively on military targets; an attack upon an enemy which has no air defense artillery, no air force, no army, no armor, and no navy.

I believe that the facts uphold the analogy.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 05-Jan-2009, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 05-Jan-2009, 08:54 AM)

Hammas is armed with small arms and primitive home-made rockets little better than big fireworks; an Israeli is more likely to be killed in a car accident or hit by lightning. Israel possesses the largest and best equipped military in the Middle East, and is armed with nuclear weapons.

Israel's blockade of Gaza is explicitly defined as a crime against humanity by the Geneva Conventions and the UN Special Envoy. Israels repeated shelling, air strikes, and incursions into Gaza were in violation of the truce to which they were signatories. Both constitute acts of war. Hammas responded with the only weapons at hand. What would you do in their place, if 75% of your population was starving, and your children suffering malnutrition, stunted growth, and measurable hearing loss from months of the incessant sonic booms of Israeli overflights? Who's provoking who?

Gaza is the most densely populated penal colony in the world; with more than 10,000 captives per square mile. Hammas isn't necessarily hiding behind civilians; with a population of 1.5 million, it's essentially unavoidable. Considering Gaza's overcrowded environment, it is beggars belief that anyone can argue with a straight face that Israel's attack is focused exclusively on military targets; an attack upon an enemy which has no air defense artillery, no air force, no army, no armor, and no navy.

I believe that the facts uphold the analogy.

I am aware of all the reasons you cite, and I agree with them. I am especially grieved and disgusted with conditions of deprivation among the civilian population; I've made myself clear on this a number of times, and I deplore the blockade of food and medical supplies and services in particular. You might as well add the badly wounded to the death toll right now, in fact. (No, Ingo, I am not defending Israel's historic or present approach to "solving" this problem, or saying the 240-lb guy is right to carry on this way.)

But whether lobbing puny fireworks at Sderot is to be considered initiatory provocation or retaliation for more general and bigger ongoing offenses, Hammas is historically aware that it is going to provoke payback in the full proportion that Israel is armed to strike with, every damned time; it is also aware that it is, as you describe, thoroughly embedded among the most densely populated settlement since New York's Lower East Side of 1922, and that it is and always will be impossible to calculate strikes with such finesse that there won't be terrible collateral damage to civilian property, as well as totally unacceptable civilian casualties. Hammas is cynically exposing the Palestinian people of Gaza to this clearly no-win, no-hope scenario. Hammas, as the "elected government" of this group of people, is apparently willing to let its civilians suffer this pounding.

But then -- who is sorting out what defines a militant and who is an uninvolved civilian? Are they clearly distinguished or distinguishable? (Did we go through enough of this in Southeast Asia to know there is a very permeable boundary in those definitions sometimes? The Palestinian people -- or it it just their militants? -- have been playing for Davy and Goliath publicity since little kids were throwing rocks at tanks in the 80s, and it seems the big thug Israel never gets the message that he's being snookered again.) You say Hammas is not necessarily hiding behind civilians -- I say if it is unavoidably embedded among densely packed civilians and indistinguishable from them (yes, poor militants, they can't even afford uniforms and military kit so you can tell them from the innocent shopkeepers who have no inventory), then it IS, most necessarily, hiding among them as soon as it lobs those crappy fireworks, knowing exactly what to expect within 12 to 24 hours. And perhaps exploiting it, too. I wonder what they do while they wait -- help the people hunker down as best they can? Or line up photographers for all those shots of bleeding kids in the rubble?

You know insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
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InRi 
Posted: 05-Jan-2009, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE (stormeil @ 05-Jan-2009, 09:04 PM)
You know insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

True words, stormeil!
But there is an open question. How to stop this insanity? Both parties don't seem interested to stop that by themselves. The thousands of (potentially) victims in the civil population are irrelevant for both. What's to do?
I want to speak in images again: If two boys come to blows with cudgels I would take them the cudgels away, grab them by the scruff of the neck, sit them dowm and sandbag them to speak together until they reach a practical result.
QUOTE (Emmet @ 05-Jan-2009, 02:22 PM)
Israel
1) Immediately cease fire and withdraw all IDF forces from Gaza.
2) Immediately lift the blockade of Gaza.
3) Recognize Hammas as the legitimate Palestinian government, and negotiate accordingly in good faith.
4) Immediately halt all Israeli construction on the West Bank.
5) Begin plans for withdrawal from all occupied territories pursuant to UN Resolution 242, et. al.
6) Reopen negotiations with all parties to the 2002 Beirut Summit in good faith.
7) Respect the territorial integrity of it's neighbors in all respects.
Palestine
1) Immediately cease fire.
2) Allow the IDF invasion force to withdraw in good order.
3) Reopen negotiations with all parties to the 2002 Beirut Summit in good faith.
4) Respect the territorial integrity of it's neighbors in all respects.

As a matter of principle this is a good thing but the boys have their cudgels yet.
Is it able to take them away the cudgels - or does somebody earn a good Dollar by selling the cudgels? I just drop this remark...
But on that condition get these points:
QUOTE (Emmet @ 05-Jan-2009, 02:22 PM)
U.S.
1) Freeze all foreign aid to Israel pending their compliance with UN Resolution 242, et al.
2) Freeze all military aid to Israel pursuant to the US Arms Export Control Act and Foreign Assistance Act.
3) Stop running interference for Israel in the UN Security Council.
4) Collectively tell AIPAC to go to hell. Any elected US official, whether city councilman or President, should only pledge allegiance to one country; the United States.
very fast a great importance for both parties.
But I want to take still a step forward! Why not to demilitarize both parties? So long as there is something to slug somebody they'll do it. Both demonstrated this in the past often enough. Unfortunatly I fear this could be a game without a result too.

Do I expect too much?

Ingo
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Emmet 
Posted: 05-Jan-2009, 06:17 PM
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So it's really the Palestinians own fault. Knowing full well the unmitigated savagery of the Israelis and the outright contempt in which they hold Arab lives in general and Palestinian lives in particular, they should have played along in the sham of Middle East democracy and dutifully elected that Quisling Abbas and the corrupt Fatah regime as Israel and the United States ordered them to, meekly accepting their subjugation and prostrating themselves before their conqueror like good slaves.

If you were Palestinian, is this really what you would do?
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 05-Jan-2009, 07:02 PM
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Uh huh -- go try to demilitarize Israel, Ingo. I'll hold your coat while you do. dry.gif

Look -- it seems to me there are no shades of grey in the way you reason this, Emmet. The "don't blame the victim" model is too blunt an instrument to characterize this problem of how to make the Palestinian side of the conflict bear its own weight. There is deep culpability on both sides, and if it only were a playground scrap with big grownups to take away the cudgels, both boys would need to be disarmed and reprimanded equally and severely. But you do not have a clean and simple "hulking bully vs. scrappy underdog" here -- that's also an easy model to loft up, based solely on disparity of armaments. As to unmitigated savagery and contempt for life -- how many Israelis have detonated themselves in the middle of Arab markets? Perhaps you hold Israel honor-bound to regard Palestinian lives as sacred when they do not hold their own lives sacred. Or maybe you would say suicide bombing is a different way to hold life sacred -- a martyr's sacrifice. Maybe blowing yourself up with your victims is more immediate and less cowardly than long-range missiles? Or this dance of starving, bleeding death in Gaza is infinitely preferable to all concerned than a "quisling" sellout that might buy less than perfect autonomy but gets you some room to breathe, the ear of the powers, and your kids well fed and not growing up deaf from repeated blast injuries? All questions. I'm not saying I have the answers -- I just wonder sometimes why you are so sure that you do. I tell you what I don't think it is -- it's not good old American-style, heroic, ringing "Give me liberty or give me death!" (In fact I'm not sure even Patrick Henry was that. Hindsight has such great lighting effects.) But what these people are being dragged through by their own intransigent, all-or-nothing heroes comprises at least 50% of the abuse. So -- is it "all their fault?" No. I never said so.
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Antwn 
Posted: 05-Jan-2009, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 05-Jan-2009, 08:22 AM)
It's not my purpose in life to educate or entertain fools. Clearly you have access to Google; try using research to refute an argument rather than sarcasm.


A request that you authenticate your claims by providing the sources for your statistics is hardly unreasonable nor is it foolish. This was the first sentence in my initial response to you. If you make assertions its beholden upon you to substantiate their veracity not your readers. I wasn't asking for a lengthy bibliography, just a few websites where you derived your statistics. That you refuse to provide any makes me incredulous as to their authenticity. I'm sure you don't care to what degree I believe you, since you haven't bothered to respond to any of my questions, yet at the same time call me a fool and challenge me to refute you! If you don't bother to substantiate yourself, don't bother to respond to questions about your initial post I already asked, why should I research YOUR claims and offer a refutation? It would be fruitless effort since apparantly I haven't met your personal criteria for worthiness of response. Fine, suits me. Your superciliousness is appreciated by me as much as my facetiousness is appreciated by you. Now, if you'll pardon me I have to go commit a "crime against humanity" by paying my income tax.
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