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Dogshirt 
Posted: 19-Aug-2006, 02:56 PM
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It seems obvious now that Isreal can not be trusted to hold to a cease fire. Typical "Whiteman" behavior!


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teashoci 
Posted: 23-Aug-2006, 01:41 PM
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i can gaurantee that israel will cease to be the pooh stiring bully that they are when iran get the bomb.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 23-Aug-2006, 02:23 PM
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Well -- Israel agreed prior and aboveboard to a cease-fire to the extent that they did not perceive themselves under attack, and left the decision to their own discretion. That's why it was so shaky in the knees to begin with. If Iran "gets the bomb," which I assume you are not rooting for specifically, I wouldn't be so sure Israel would lie down and cower. Frankly, I have observed (and it grieves me, pure and simple, to tears) that Israel has a political suicidal streak that is the full complement to the inclinations of any Arab kid who straps on an explosive belt.
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 23-Aug-2006, 03:44 PM
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The Middle East conflict is difficult to solve, but it is among the simplest conflicts in history to understand.

The Arab and other Muslim enemies of Israel (for the easily confused, this does not mean every Arab or every Muslim) want Israel destroyed. That is why there is a Middle East conflict. Everything else is commentary.

Those who deny this and ascribe the conflict to other reasons, such as "Israeli occupation," "Jewish settlements," a "cycle of violence," "the Zionist lobby" and the like, do so despite the fact that Israel's enemies regularly announce the reason for the conflict. The Iranian regime, Hizbollah, Hamas and the Palestinians -- in their public opinion polls, in their anti-Semitic school curricula and media, in their election of Hamas, in their support for terror against Israeli civilians in pre-1967 borders -- as well as their Muslim supporters around the world, all want the Jewish state annihilated.

In 1947-48, the Arab states tried to destroy the tiny Jewish state formed by the United Nations partition plan. In 1967, Egypt, Syria and Jordan tried to destroy Israel in what became known as the Six-Day War. All of this took place before Israel occupied one millimeter of Palestinian land and before there was a single Jewish settler in the West Bank.

Two months after the Six-Day War of June 5-10, 1967, the Arab countries convened in Khartoum, Sudan, and announced on Sept. 1, 1967, their famous "Three NOs" to Israel: "No peace, No recognition, No negotiations."

Six years later, in 1973, Egypt invaded the Israeli-held Sinai Peninsula, a war that ended in a boost in Egyptian morale from its initially successful surprise attack. Though nearly all of the Sinai remained in Israel's hands, the boost in Egyptian self-confidence enabled Egypt's visionary president, Anwar Sadat, four years later (November 1977), to do the unimaginable for an Arab leader: He visited Israel and addressed its parliament in Jerusalem. As a result, in 1978, Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty in return for which Israel gave all of the oil-rich Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt.

Three years later, in 1981, Sadat was assassinated by Egyptian Muslims, a killing welcomed by most Arabs, including the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization). Why welcomed? Because Sadat had done the unforgivable -- recognized Israel and made peace with it.

The lesson that Palestinians should have learned from the Israeli-Egyptian peace agreement was that if you make peace with Israel, you will not only get peace in return, you will also get all or nearly all of your land back. That is how much Israelis ache for peace.

Think about Israel for one moment: Israel is one of the most advanced countries on earth in terms of culture (most books published, translated from other languages and read per capita; most orchestras per capita, etc.); major advances in medicine; technological breakthroughs; and decency as a society, as exemplified by its treatment of its women, gays and even its large Arab minority (particularly remarkable in light of the widespread Arab and Muslim anti-Semitism and desire to annihilate Israel). This is hardly a picture of some bloodthirsty, land-grabbing society. And Jews, whatever their flaws, have never been known to be a violent people. If anything, the stereotypical Jew has been depicted as particularly docileAs a lifelong liberal critic of Israeli policies, the New York Times foreign affairs columnist Thomas Friedman wrote just two weeks ago: "The Palestinians could have a state on the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem tomorrow, if they and the Arab League clearly recognized Israel, normalized relations and renounced violence. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know Israel today."

Give Israel peace, and Israel will give you land.

Which is exactly what Israel agreed to do in the last year of the Clinton administration. It offered PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat about 97 percent of the West Bank and three percent of Israel's land in exchange for peace. Instead, Israel got its men, women and children routinely blown up and maimed by Palestinian terrorists after the Palestinians rejected the Israeli offer at Camp David. Even President Clinton, desirous of being the honest broker and yearning to be history's Middle East peacemaker, blamed the ensuing violence entirely on the Palestinians.

Israel's Camp David offer of a Palestinian state for Palestinian peace was rejected because most Palestinians and their Arab and Muslim supporters don't want a second state. They want Israel destroyed. They admit it. Only those who wish Israel's demise and the willfully naive do not.

If you don't believe this, ask almost anyone living in the Middle East why there is a Middle East War, preferably in Arabic. If you ask in English, they will assume you are either an academic, a Western news reporter, a diplomat or a "peace activist." And then, they will assume you are gullible and will tell you that it's because of "Israeli occupation" or "the Zionist lobby."

But they know it isn't. And it never was.




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teashoci 
Posted: 24-Aug-2006, 08:17 AM
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I dont root for iran getting the boomb , but i can perceive that it is entirely plausible due to the middle east becoming dangerously unstable thanks to america and britain.
irans biggest adversaries afghanistans taliban and iraqs saddam hussain and co. are no longer in power thus allows iran to direct military activity and resources to countering israel.

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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 24-Aug-2006, 07:42 PM
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QUOTE (teashoci @ 24-Aug-2006, 08:17 AM)
I dont root for iran getting the boomb , but i can perceive that it is entirely plausible due to the middle east becoming dangerously unstable thanks to america and britain.
irans biggest adversaries afghanistans taliban and iraqs saddam hussain and co. are no longer in power thus allows iran to direct military activity and resources to countering israel.

The Middle East has NEVER been stable since the beginning of time.
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teashoci 
Posted: 25-Aug-2006, 08:15 AM
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in that context you could have said that about europe.

my argument concludes that the middle east has been thrown into chaos in the past three years.
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 10-Sep-2006, 03:31 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 19-Aug-2006, 02:56 PM)
It seems obvious now that Isreal can not be trusted to hold to a cease fire. Typical "Whiteman" behavior!


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So is prejudice then typical Injun behavior?

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Dogshirt 
Posted: 10-Sep-2006, 05:51 PM
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Prejudice no, EXPERIENCE YES!


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Dogshirt 
Posted: 10-Sep-2006, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE
So is prejudice then typical Injun behavior?


And learn to spell!


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Randy 
Posted: 11-Sep-2006, 09:49 AM
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=90...197790&hl=en-GB

Very interesting no matter what side you support.

If the link does not work let me know.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 11-Sep-2006, 09:59 AM
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QUOTE (Nova Scotian @ 24-Aug-2006, 07:42 PM)

The Middle East has NEVER been stable since the beginning of time.

The beginning of TIME!!?? Let's not equate the beginning of time with the beginning of our feckless species, shall we?

Well -- quite apart from the natural resources question, the whole region is a crossroads to and from everywhere else, both by land and by sea. Problematic, in terms of letting it have autonomous control, especially now, when religious or ideological positions have polarized and heated up. However, I would like to point out that the region has remained quite stable for long periods under imperial domination -- this is well known by everyone, tacitly approved by some, and of course deeply resented by others. So it doesn't take much to project the widespread and frankly understandable perception throughout the region that America is attempting to take over where, say, Britain left off, except that Israel is the front man and the spread of democracy (whether it's welcome or even appropriate in any particular context) has replaced the more candidly framed search to control and expropriate resources. And control of those crossroads.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 14-Sep-2006, 01:05 PM
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OK -- this is a very timely example of what I meant in the George Galloway thread, about there being no monolith of Jewish opinion, with regard to treatement of Arabs. You can be very sure that not even all Israelis are taking this the same way:



Israeli Rightist Calls for Transfer of Arabs
Secular Groups Slam Remarks, Orthodox Silent

Steven I. Weiss | Fri. Sep 15, 2006


Effi Eitam, a leader of the joint Knesset faction aligned with Orthodox Zionists worldwide, drew swift condemnation this week from secular American Jewish organizations because of his call “to expel the great majority of the Arabs” from the West Bank and “sweep the Israeli Arabs from the political system.” But for the most part, his ideological allies in the United States have remained silent.

Eitam made the remarks in an interview Monday on Israeli Army Radio, during which he also reportedly described Arab Knesset members as “a fifth column, a league of traitors of the first rank.” The comments strongly resembled the platform of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, whose Kach Party commanded three seats in the Knesset before being barred as a racist movement.

The statements came as three Arab Knesset members traveled to Damascus to meet with Syrian President Bashar Assad. In recent days, several Israeli Arab lawmakers also have voiced support for the efforts of Syria and Hezbollah to fight Israel, with one lawmaker praising efforts to abduct Israeli soldiers.

A reserve brigadier general and one of the army’s highest-ranking Orthodox officers ever, Eitam is the former head of the National Religious Party, the flagship of the worldwide religious Zionist movement embraced by the Modern Orthodox in America. His remarks have drawn a hailstorm of criticism in the past few days. The leader of the leftwing Meretz party, Yossi Beilin, calling upon the attorney general to prosecute Eitam for incitement to racism, a crime in Israel.

The Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Congress both released statements slamming Eitam. In contrast, none of the American Orthodox organizations in Eitam’s theological camp — the Rabbinical Zionists of America, the Rabbinical Council of America, the Orthodox Union — issued statements condemning his remarks or calling on the NRP to break from the joint faction that he leads.

In response to inquiries from the Forward, several Orthodox leaders in America did address Eitam’s remarks.

The president of the Religious Zionists of America, Rabbi Yosef Blau, told the Forward that “Effie Eitam has always been of an extreme position within the broad movement” of the Orthodox Zionist camp. Blau said that Eitam’s position “represents one pole… to the best of my personal understanding, this view of his is not the mainstream view, and not of most religious Zionists.” Blau also downplayed Eitam’s association with the NRP, asserting that Eitam had become a member of the party only through a political compromise with the National Union faction.

After leaving the army, Eitam became chairman of the NRP but left in 2005 over disengagement. He then crossed over to the more radical National Union. The alignment of the two factions in this year’s election put him near the top of a much larger vehicle with 11 seats in the Knesset.

Blau said that Eitam should not be judged by this one incident, since his remarks could have been the result of a heated outburst within the “context of a group of Arab Knesset members going to Syria, at a time when Syria has self-defined itself as an enemy of Israel.”

“I’m not prepared to say, ‘Throw this one out of the Knesset, throw that one out of the Knesset’ every time someone says something,” Blau said.

Rabbi Norman Lamm, the chancellor of Yeshiva University, also offered critcism, while cautioning against a rush to sanction Eitam.

“I can understand what drives General Eitam, but I do not at all concur with his conclusions,” said Lamm, who occupied the top spot on the NRP-aligned list in the most recent World Zionist elections.

“Israel prides itself as being the only true democracy in the Middle East, and that is an asset, as well as a moral obligation, that I would not want to forfeit,” Lamm said. “At the same time, I would not go to the other extreme, and charge him with racism, because what bothers him are national groups that are presumably disloyal to the state, not ethnic or religious groups. It is therefore wrong in my opinion to persecute and prosecute General Eitam — but it is important to dissociate ourselves from this dangerous policy.”

Rabbi Haskel Lookstein, a top Modern Orthodox pulpit rabbi, was more accepting of Eitam’s remarks.

“I think he points to a very serious problem for the State of Israel, and I don’t know what the solution to that problem is,” Lookstein said. The rabbi leads Kehilath Jeshurun, a posh congregation on Manhattan’s Upper East Side. “I think you have a very large percentage of the citizens of Israel who are not loyal to the state but rather to the sworn enemies of the state, but I don’t know how to solve that problem.”

Asked to respond to Eitam’s remarks, Lookstein said, “I don’t think it would be helpful for me to take a position on what Effie Eitam said.”

Rabbi Basil Herring of the Rabbinical Council of America said he could not provide a complete reply until he’d consulted his board. “What I can certainly tell you now,” he said, “is that we will not endorse those statements.”

The ADL and the AJCongress went much further in condemning the remarks. “Calls by public figures to ban minorities and expel them from their homes are abhorrent,” the ADL said in a statement released to the media. The organization added: “These are irresponsible statements advocating collective measures that the ADL totally rejects.”

The ADL also stated that “Eitam’s remarks do nothing to further Israel’s quest to live peacefully among its neighbors and are an insult to its loyal Arab Israeli citizens.”

A similar sentiment was voiced by the president of the AJCongress, Jack Rosen, in a statement that said: “If, God forbid, it were ever implemented, Eitam’s strategy would lead to Israel’s complete isolation and force it to sacrifice its democratic character.… Eitam’s proposal to sacrifice Israel’s democratic character to ensure Jewish security is the mirror image of the claim by Israeli Arab radicals that Israel must sacrifice its Jewish character to earn its democratic one. We do not share either view.”

The Jewish Daily Forward
e-newsletter

Fri. Sep 15, 2006


You should know that The Forward is the leading moderate-to-leftist Jewish Newspaper in America.
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 16-Sep-2006, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 10-Sep-2006, 06:18 PM)

And learn to spell!


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Learn not to be such a jackass.
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 16-Sep-2006, 12:40 AM
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QUOTE

Learn not to be such a jackass.



Yes Mr. Kettle?


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