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stoirmeil 
Posted: 24-Jul-2006, 09:51 AM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 23-Jul-2006, 07:42 PM)
Isreal is WRONG, and should be sanctioned and condemned by every civilized country in the world! They have started this with their heavy handed tactics of attacking civilians under the WEAK guise of attacking terrorists. fyou.gif


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It's not a "weak guise." They ARE attacking terrorists. They are being very heavy handed, you're right, and outright indifferent about avoiding civilian casualties and infrastructure damage. It's almost impossible to justify announcing an evacuation and then destroying the main roads, for example. On the other hand, it's virtually impossible to surgically target terrorists who have infiltrated the whole south of the country to the point of making themselves into a semi-legitimate political party without causing damage to the uninvolved. Hezballah is using the whole area as a human shield, and they know it and the Israelis know it. Maybe we could save a little anger for them.

This isn't a border skirmish. The missiles have struck all the way to Haifa, and that ain't hay -- that took years of buildup and planning. I knew when they let go of the Golan six years ago something like this had to come, and the longer it waited the bigger the buildup of strike capacity would be.

I don't agree with the Israeli general who spoke about it over the weekend, holding the Lebanese completely accountable for harboring the terrorists. Some accountability is in order, but the country has been so shredded and disorganized for so long, there is no genuine wherewithal for Lebanon to keep its borders sealed and undesirables out -- and I believe (though others don't) that the great majority of Lebanese don't really want these people in there making them a target.
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 24-Jul-2006, 06:20 PM
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I see this as EXACTLY like the US vs the Laktoa people! EVERYTHING Isreal has done, from the day they declared themself as a nation has been ILLEGAL and WRONG! If Isreal was GONE this would not be happening! The sooner the US washes their hands of these criminals the sooner the world will settle into peace! Isreal is an ILLEGAL entity that needs to be excised from the world picture! The sooner the western world understands this the better! Isreal has NO right to exsist! Or ANYOTHER rights either! fyou.gif


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 24-Jul-2006, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 24-Jul-2006, 06:20 PM)
I see this as EXACTLY like the US vs the Laktoa people! EVERYTHING Isreal has done, from the day they declared themself as a nation has been ILLEGAL and WRONG! If Isreal was GONE this would not be happening! The sooner the US washes their hands of these criminals the sooner the world will settle into peace! Isreal is an ILLEGAL entity that needs to be excised from the world picture! The sooner the western world understands this the better! Isreal has NO right to exsist! Or ANYOTHER rights either! fyou.gif


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The Jews were there first thousands of years prior and it is their land. Many Jews have always lived there throughout thousands of years. Israel was there first and Israel has ALWAYS exsisted! LONG LIVE ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've got news for you, Israel is going NO WHERE! Many have tried to make the Jew and Isreal cease to exsist but have failed.


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 24-Jul-2006, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 24-Jul-2006, 06:20 PM)
I see this as EXACTLY like the US vs the Laktoa people! EVERYTHING Isreal has done, from the day they declared themself as a nation has been ILLEGAL and WRONG! If Isreal was GONE this would not be happening! The sooner the US washes their hands of these criminals the sooner the world will settle into peace! Isreal is an ILLEGAL entity that needs to be excised from the world picture! The sooner the western world understands this the better! Isreal has NO right to exsist! Or ANYOTHER rights either! fyou.gif


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Also why we're at it, do you actually agree with Iran, thinking they should Nuke them? I sure hope not I respect you too much Dog!
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 24-Jul-2006, 07:24 PM
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NO! I wouldn't trust Iran with the radioactive unit from a microwave! But in conventional warfare Isreal should sink or swim! Personaly I think sink.
By the way, I am NOT antisemetic, just anti-Isreal.


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 24-Jul-2006, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 24-Jul-2006, 07:24 PM)
NO! I wouldn't trust Iran with the radioactive unit from a microwave! But in conventional warfare Isreal should sink or swim! Personaly I think sink.
By the way, I am NOT antisemetic, just anti-Isreal.


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I'm glad you're not antisemetic.
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 24-Jul-2006, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 24-Jul-2006, 06:20 PM)
Isreal is an ILLEGAL entity that needs to be excised from the world picture! The sooner the western world understands this the better! Isreal has NO right to exsist! Or ANYOTHER rights either!

Where does this level of hatred come from? And if Israel has no right to exist, what should their people be? More than that, are you saying you believe in the legitimacy of so-called Palestine, while giving Israel no legitimacy at all?


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Dogshirt 
Posted: 24-Jul-2006, 09:47 PM
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This level of feeling (hatred if you wish) comes of 45 years (I wasn't old enough for more than that, but read about the first years) of watching Isreal do exactly what the US did to my people, but without the transparent legitimacy of the TREATIES that the white man had no intention of keeping.
As for where they should go? I really don't care, it is a big world, but they have NO right to move into ANYONE else's land and claim it as their own! PERIOD!
Palestine, Transjordan, call it what you will, those people were there first! And that supercedes ANY claim to legitimacy that Isreal may TRY to justify!


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haynes9 
Posted: 24-Jul-2006, 11:20 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 24-Jul-2006, 08:47 PM)
This level of feeling (hatred if you wish) comes of 45 years (I wasn't old enough for more than that, but read about the first years) of watching Isreal do exactly what the US did to my people, but without the transparent legitimacy of the TREATIES that the white man had no intention of keeping.
As for where they should go? I really don't care, it is a big world, but they have NO right to move into ANYONE else's land and claim it as their own! PERIOD!
Palestine, Transjordan, call it what you will, those people were there first! And that supercedes ANY claim to legitimacy that Isreal may TRY to justify!


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Hey Dog, I consider you and I friends. You probably know that I am polar opposite of you on this issue. I don't want to be disagreeable, I just disagree.

I am not going to go into a Biblical argument here. I don't think you would accept it, so there is no need to go into it except to say that I believe God gave much of the land that is in dispute today to the Jews.

Why is it that the other Arab countries have not provided land for their Palestinian brethren? Was it not the intention for Jordan to be the homeland of the Palestinians? Why is it that as soon as Israel had left Gaza, the Palestinians started killing each other again?

Dog, I agree with you that there was a lot of cruelty committed upon the Native American people by Anglos. You know that is an issue I do not shy away from since I live on the Navajo Nation. But I think you do yourself and our people (I know I ma not Indian, but proudly live among Native peoples on purpose) a disservice to equate what is happening in the Middle East with what happened in America. I am of the opinion that by and large, the Native peoples of this land have responded to their treatment with dignity and courage. There were exceptions, of course, but all peoples have those "bad apples" that can be pointed to. Hamas and Hezzbolah are a far cry from those great statesman that Native America produced. It is a different story, my friend!

And where is the outcry in the Arab world over the gross mistreatment of the Kurds? The Palestinians and Arabs use those poor people for target practice in most of their countries.

Just my two cents. Take care, Dog, and have a great day.


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 25-Jul-2006, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 24-Jul-2006, 09:47 PM)
This level of feeling (hatred if you wish) comes of 45 years (I wasn't old enough for more than that, but read about the first years) of watching Isreal do exactly what the US did to my people, but without the transparent legitimacy of the TREATIES that the white man had no intention of keeping.
As for where they should go? I really don't care, it is a big world, but they have NO right to move into ANYONE else's land and claim it as their own! PERIOD!
Palestine, Transjordan, call it what you will, those people were there first! And that supercedes ANY claim to legitimacy that Isreal may TRY to justify!


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Lets just remember one thing. The Jews and Israel were ther first before the Greek conquest, the Roman conquest and after being scattered throughout Europe, there were a few through the Ottoman rule that were there. So Israel has ALWAYS been there. Now this isn't a Bible lesson this is a history lesson. Also long before Israel became a country again, many Arab tribal chieftans sold off to Jews from around the globe land thast they thought was worthless desert and swamp but the Jews engineered the land to make it fertal. Then the Arabs turned around and tried to say that they the Jews stole it! Now that wasn't all of Israel but some of it. This comes from my wifes relitives who are Christian Palistinians and who's ancesters whittnessed it all.
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 25-Jul-2006, 08:33 PM
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That's not quite true. According to your bible, God lead them to the area and they drove out the inhabitants. Just like today.


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 25-Jul-2006, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 25-Jul-2006, 08:33 PM)
That's not quite true. According to your bible, God lead them to the area and they drove out the inhabitants. Just like today.

Well the people who they took it from are long gone. But as for tody, the Palistinians were NOT there before the Jews so Israel is there to stay. Since we're on who's land is who's, just who was here before the American Indians and who did they take it from? Plus since YOU brought up the Bible, Israel proper as stated in the Bible is most of the Middle East, not just that little strip land they have today. Also, Palistine never was even a country. Palistine was named by the Romans. It was the region. So like I said before, Israel was before Palistine.

Lets think about it. Since you also have Scottish in you. Maby Scottland should wage war on England since they stole the land from the Scots. RIGHT? I said it once and I'll say it again, Israel is there to stay. I know you don't believe and don't care but God is on the side of Israel. If he wasn't Israel would never have survived the invasions they've had in the past years and the Jews would have long been exterminated. Israels very existance today was forseen in the Bible.
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 25-Jul-2006, 09:46 PM
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All else aside, there is no evidence that any humans evolved on this continent. There is also no physical evidence before 28,000years ago. These early cultures of hunter-gatherers are collectively known as Amerinds. There are 5-8 (depending on who does the grouping) Linguistic families, that are then broken down into the Nations that we know today.
My people DID take over land that was abandoned by the Shoshone after they received that most marvelous of gifts from the whiteman, smallpox. They were so decimated, that they pulled back to the west of the Rockies and only ventured back to hunt buffalo.
As far as can be determined, other than shifting boundaries after pressure from the whiteman, there was no major warfare between the Nations.


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SCShamrock 
Posted: 26-Jul-2006, 02:24 AM
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I'm sorry, but I simply cannot understand all the oneupmanship behind this. It seems quite trifling to me. It is beyond comprehension what kind of apocalyptic events would unfold if all the lands that were ever conquered were to suddenly be restored to the "rightful" inhabitants. How far back are you willing to go? This is silly. Israel is a sovereign state, and nothing short of a complete overthrow of their government or a catastrophic earth event is going to change that. And honestly, why is it that you always hear about native Americans as nothing more than innocent victims, as if they were (are?) some sort of sacred, flawless beings without spot or blemish? I know people who live in the past, but most of the time it's their own past. This boggles the mind.
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 26-Jul-2006, 05:12 AM
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QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 26-Jul-2006, 02:24 AM)
I'm sorry, but I simply cannot understand all the oneupmanship behind this. It seems quite trifling to me. It is beyond comprehension what kind of apocalyptic events would unfold if all the lands that were ever conquered were to suddenly be restored to the "rightful" inhabitants. How far back are you willing to go? This is silly. Israel is a sovereign state, and nothing short of a complete overthrow of their government or a catastrophic earth event is going to change that. And honestly, why is it that you always hear about native Americans as nothing more than innocent victims, as if they were (are?) some sort of sacred, flawless beings without spot or blemish? I know people who live in the past, but most of the time it's their own past. This boggles the mind.

Thank you! This is my point exactally! If Dog think Israel has no right to exsist, which it does, then fine. He's a grown man and he's not going to change his mind. This is a topic that is especially hot among Middle Easterners. As I've mentioned my wifes family is Palistinian and Israel is a tongue in cheek conversation but they arn't Muslims and when it comes down to it they all agree Israel has a right to exsist. Now ask a Muslim, most are hell bent on Israels destruction! Lets look at Lebanon for a minute. Sure it's sad to seen innocient suffer, but if a majority are against Hesbula then why didn't they drive them out? If most Palistinian Muslims are against terrorism then why did they elect Hammas?
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