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Emmet 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 06:10 PM
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Where did this quotation of Haim Ranon come from, by the way?


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Emmet 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 06:23 PM
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He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there could be considered a Hezbollah supporter.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.


(emphasis added)

As you can see, the meaning is somewhat different then was previously implied. Context makes a big difference.


Ah; kind of like all those hapless Negroes who remained in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina; obviously, they've no one to blame but themselves.

What of all of the reports from several different sources of carloads of refugees flying white bedsheets (and several IRC ambulances; white with big red crosses on the roofs) being strafed and rocketed by Israeli Apache helicopters while trying to escape southern Lebanon? What about the 80% of Lebanese roads and over 90% of bridges that had been previously destroyed? In precisely what way do fluttering leaflets absolve Israel of any guilt for the devestation of another country!?
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 06:47 PM
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So, guys, your two posts of Haim Ranon are worded quite differently, and it seems not to be a matter of context so much as two diferent remarks with the same basic content -- or the same one very badly bent for the reporter's purposes. How can you know?

Look -- maybe I'm naive, but this seems to me to be the basic effect of napalming, but from the air, to strip the terrain so you can see what the hell you're doing before going in. The IDF has enough wretched experience with Lebanon to want to do the least amount of ground combat possible. As I remember, they did try one sally over the last several days and lost more heavily than they liked, so they are back to air strikes.
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Emmet 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 06:57 PM
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I have not read of Israeli use of napalm (yet; citation?). There has however been documented use of white phosphorous and cluster bombs in civilian areas.
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 07:09 PM
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I've been away for just a day and look at this thread! LOLOL! tongue.gif All I'm going to say is how does a nation, Israel, deal with a people, The Arab/ Muslim world, who are hell bent on destroying them? Who say Israel is a sworn enemy, who teach in elementry school books in Arab schools how to kill Jews and preach hatrid to their children? So how exactly should Israel deal with these barbarians? By the way the barbarian quote comes from my friend who is a Kurdish Iranian and is ALso a Muslim. Besides, we Celts are all technically barbarians so it's all right then. thumbs_up.gif lolol


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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 07:21 PM
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They should deal with them with intelligence, honor, and precision. Not blunt, brute, unguided force and anhilation. If they use the same ideas and tactics against their enemy that their enemy is accused of, how are they better?


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jedibowers 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 07:27 PM
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I've been away all weekend and have been trying to catch up. It seems to me that some of you have forgotten that Hezbollah is a terrorist group. Hezbollah came across the border and killed 9 Israel soldiers and kidnapped two more. This was an act of war. Israel has all rights to protect it's self. I've heard this weekend that Lebenon government is standing behind Hezbollah. I'm sad that there has been so many inocent deaths, but when terrorist hide behind non-soldiers, that happens. Why has no one talked about all the damage that Hezbollah has done to Israel?

The way I look at it is that Hezbollah are terrorist and they need to be dealt with in way need to be to get rid of them. I say go for it and route them out and get rid of the terrorist. This is becoming close to being WW3 with war against terrorist all over the world.
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Herrerano 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 07:32 PM
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CelticCoalition Posted on 31-Jul-2006, 07:21 PM
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They should deal with them with intelligence, honor, and precision. Not blunt, brute, unguided force and anhilation. If they use the same ideas and tactics against their enemy that their enemy is accused of, how are they better?



Some people just plain aren't interested in talking or listening. Believe it or not, there really and truly are evil people in the world to whom no amount of talking or reasoning will ever make a difference.

I say this after having learned it myself, by being stupidly naive, when I would have been better served being cunning and crafty. Some of us learn our lessons hard.

I think the argument could be made here that sometimes intelligence and precision and honor require blunt brute force.

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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE (Herrerano @ 31-Jul-2006, 06:32 PM)
CelticCoalition Posted on 31-Jul-2006, 07:21 PM



Some people just plain aren't interested in talking or listening. Believe it or not, there really and truly are evil people in the world to whom no amount of talking or reasoning will ever make a difference.

I say this after having learned it myself, by being stupidly naive, when I would have been better served being cunning and crafty. Some of us learn our lessons hard.

I think the argument could be made here that sometimes intelligence and precision and honor require blunt brute force.

Leo cool.gif

I never said Israel should try and talk this out. I never have said Israel should not fight. I've never even said that Israel should cease fire.

What I don't agree with is the blow everything up and let God sort them out mentality Israel appears to be using to fight this war.

Intelligence, honor, and precision are not antonyms of war. They should be at the top of the list of descriptions of a war.

I realize that it is impossible to negotiate or talk with terrorists. Part of what I understand terrorists to be are racially drivin fanatics. I do not beleive that a terrorist cares about the distinction between civilian and military. Nor do they see innocents.

But to abandon those distinctions is to become a terrorist. To say that because the enemy knows no bounds neither will we...well how does that make Israel any different than the terrorists they fight?

To fight terror with terror...well that resolves nothing.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 31-Jul-2006, 06:57 PM)
I have not read of Israeli use of napalm (yet; citation?). There has however been documented use of white phosphorous and cluster bombs in civilian areas.

The effect of, by analogy. Not the stuff itself. Destruction at a safe distance is what I mean.

Lebanese who were not affiliated with or sympathetic to Hezbollah up to now have been driven into the arms of the organization by Israel's destructive aggression. There was already a social service wing of the organization in place, but I don't think they even have to be helping in that way yet to pull this loyalty from the people. It's just a little too much of an abstraction to understand that Hezbollah is drawing Israeli fire and using the people as shields. The bombs, the panic, the horrific injuries and the threat of immediate death at any moment while running for their lives are coming straight from the IDF planes, and that conclusion comes easier. Also, Hezbollah now takes the role of brother victim, hunted by the same monstrous force.

The IDF has been snookered. They've been well known for big dependable overkill responses, but it would not even have had to be this big in numbers. It's big in the mind and in appearance because of the superior technology and the military efficiency, and it's huge because of the shadow that supplied the IDF and that they are assuming could be a military backup if they need it -- us. I haven't heard that this hell's brew was a coordinated provocation between Gaza and Lebanon, but it certainly looks like it was seizing the opportunity.

Meanwhile who knows where those soldier lads are now that were kidnapped: they've served their purpose very well, might as well let them go. The activity can roll along now on civilian casualty retaliation.
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE (CelticCoalition @ 31-Jul-2006, 07:21 PM)
They should deal with them with intelligence, honor, and precision. Not blunt, brute, unguided force and anhilation. If they use the same ideas and tactics against their enemy that their enemy is accused of, how are they better?

Well they don't care about honor so why give it.
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CelticRadio 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 08:06 PM
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Emmet 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 08:22 PM
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Israel has all rights to protect it's self.


And Lebanon doesn't? Is the right to infiltrate, kidnap and assassinate at will exclusively Israel's? Why should Israel alone have the right to violate the right of others at will with impunity, and when others repay their kindness in kind, it's called "terrorism".

QUOTE
Why has no one talked about all the damage that Hezbollah has done to Israel?


We have; to date, in response to Israel's bombing campaign, Hezbollah has fired over 2000 rockets, and killed 18 civilians. Israel has flown over 15,000 bombing missions, fired hundreds of thousands of artillery shells, and killed 600+ civilians (hard to get an accurate count with all of the collapsed buildings). Does anyone really believe this is a slap-dash, spur-of-the-moment rescue operation for two soldiers, with no advance logistical or strategic planning?

And my all-time favorite:

QUOTE
I'm sad that there has been so many inocent deaths, but when terrorist hide behind non-soldiers, that happens.
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Raven 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 09:19 PM
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QUOTE (CelticCoalition @ 31-Jul-2006, 07:21 PM)
They should deal with them with intelligence, honor, and precision. Not blunt, brute, unguided force and anhilation. If they use the same ideas and tactics against their enemy that their enemy is accused of, how are they better?


I think by being alive at the end of the day they will feel better, after all it's war not a soccer match.

I guess the question to ask is how many who are critical of Israels defensive response have ever been on a battle field where it was not clear who the combatents were and who the civilians were.

And after seeing someone blown to bits by a child rolling a handgrenade or a comrades head blown off by a woman, would feel the same about Israel's response and how they are over reacting, doing things that don't make military sense etc...

Secondly
I have no doubt that we in the public are often spoon fed by the media and govt what they want us to hear so that we will arrive at the conclusions that they want us to by taking quotes out of the context that they were originally in to get different meaning.

Finally, Context of quotation does matter. Leo used the same quote as Emmett in the context it was written and it changes the meaning of the quote to say that their view point changes the meaning is not accurate.

Taking the quote out of context just like earlier misquotes of myself and putting words in my mouth was an obvious attempt to manipulate what was said to an agenda. People who attempt to manipulate this way show beyond a doubt that they value their agenda above the truth of the matter.

I find that I don't respect opinions of people that I agree with who would stoop to this type of manipulation, much less someone who appears to have an unreasonable position to begin with.

Mikel


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stoirmeil 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 09:21 PM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 31-Jul-2006, 08:22 PM)

Does anyone really believe this is a slap-dash, spur-of-the-moment rescue operation for two soldiers, with no advance logistical or strategic planning?


I think the provocation was very likely planned, or at least dived on as a prize opportunity, between Hamas and Hezbollah. If you think this was in actuality an Israeli scheme, loaded and cocked and just waiting for some provocation to go off, then I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about why at this juncture. There is a certain potential logic in a response to intelligence about an arms buildup, hitting some unacceptable critical risk level in Lebanon, and wanting to play it like self defense (though I'm not sold on it) -- but why now? Certainly gives Bush a hotfoot, with no warning. Or does the scheme go even that far, do you think, and that's why the footdragging on the cease-fire, before the strike on Qana?

I dunno. Nothing is outside the realm of possibility, given recent public opinion on all the conflict fronts, but -- I dunno. Anybody got any thoughts?
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