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Emmet 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 02:11 PM
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Who bloodied whose nose first is relevant.
   
At this point in the game, why?

If you had ever been sucker punched you would not have to ask this question.

Just to clarify that we're talking about the same thing, I assume that you're referring to 1967; the "Six Day War"?


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Perhaps the Palestinians wanted Gaza back because it was theirs in the first place?

possetion is 9 tenths of the law.


And therefore "might makes right". What was that you were saying about "tyrants/bullys"?

QUOTE
  The Israelies have not been involved in expansionism beyond response. History is clear about this...Israel response to attacks intiated by Arab nations... you seem to have selective history distorder. Case in point if you bloody Israel's nose they are going to hit back. YOu can't forget about the intitial attack years or weeks later and just say how is that relavent. The israelies took Gaza from them in retaliation .... oh yeah you know how they got it  they did not have to give it back, but they did. Do you hate Israel for some reason? You have a very selective memory.... no offense, it just seems that you keep coming up with these obtuse arguments that you have to know don't really wash or are you in sales. (that would explain a lot )


Ahhh...you are referring to the Six Day War. Yes, I do know how Israel got Gaza, although apparently you do not. On the 5th of June, 1967, Israel "sucker punched" Egypt in Operation Moked with a surprise attack that destroyed virtually the entire Egyptian Air Force on the ground, killing over 100 Egyptian pilots who were up until that moment noncombatants, and simultaneously invading Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula with 700 tanks. No; of my many failings, "selective history distorder" certainly isn't one of them.

As a side note of interest, three days later the USS Liberty (AGTR-5) an American "technical research ship" (OK; a spy ship) was attacked without provocation in international waters 12 1/2 miles off the Sinai Peninsula by the IDF with multiple air and PT boat attacks, killing 34 American servicemen and wounding 173. Not only were Israeli radio communications monitored which in the clear identified the USS Liberty as American ship, but at least one Israeli pilot refused to fly the second mission, and was sentenced to prison as a result.

Perhaps after a bit of research on the subject, you might want to revise your impression of exactly who the "tyrants/bullys" are.


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stoirmeil 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 02:17 PM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 31-Jul-2006, 02:11 PM)
As a side note of interest, three days later the USS Liberty (AGTR-5) an American "technical research ship" (OK; a spy ship) was attacked without provocation in international waters 12 1/2 miles off the Sinai Peninsula by the IDF with multiple air and PT boat attacks, killing 34 American servicemen and wounding 173. Not only were Israeli radio communications monitored which in the clear identified the USS Liberty as American ship, but at least one Israeli pilot refused to fly the second mission, and was sentenced to prison as a result.

Where could I read more about this?
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Emmet 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 02:27 PM
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  I'm not disagreeing with that in any way....I think the way an offender is thinking, or has anaesthetized his thinking, has something to do with the methods you take toward heading him off (assuming you can communicate at all -- and aren't we pinning some hope on negotiation?).


Precisely. If you want to deescalate a conflict, you must at least try to understand what's motivating the combatants in the first place, and wherever possible eliminate or at least minimize those factors that feed those motivations. The "methods you take toward heading him off" might involve carrots, perhaps sticks, or some confluence of both, but it's pretty obvious that simply brutally bombing each other into submission hasn't worked to either's advantage in the past, and I see no reason to suspect the same approach will suddenly yield success this go 'round, the sunny optimism of Condoleezza Rice, the abject scorn of John Bolton, or the infantile babblings of George Bush nonwithstanding.
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Emmet 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 02:34 PM
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  As a side note of interest, three days later the USS Liberty (AGTR-5) an American "technical research ship" (OK; a spy ship) was attacked without provocation in international waters 12 1/2 miles off the Sinai Peninsula by the IDF with multiple air and PT boat attacks, killing 34 American servicemen and wounding 173. Not only were Israeli radio communications monitored which in the clear identified the USS Liberty as American ship, but at least one Israeli pilot refused to fly the second mission, and was sentenced to prison as a result.


Where could I read more about this?
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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE (Raven @ 31-Jul-2006, 12:26 PM)
QUOTE (Emmet @ 31-Jul-2006, 01:17 PM)
QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 31-Jul-2006, 01:05 PM)
Either the IDF is [i]grossly incompetent (not bloody likely), or they're intentionally killing hundreds of civilians in reprisal, which I find not only unjustifiable, but obscene beyond words...although names, like Lidice, Guernica, Oradour-sur-Glane, and Kortelisy come to mind. This isn't self defense; this is mass murder.[/i]

They've never been incompetent in the life of that nation, and they are not starting now.  But neither do I think it is sheer reprisal as a primary intent.  I think there's a third reading, and in a way it's worse:  they've dehumanized the meaning of "collateral damage," if possible, even more than we have, and it has been tabled indefinitely as a matter of moral consideration how many civilians have to be lost to get those SOBs to surrender or get out of there.  Hiroshima wasn't a reprisal either.  It was self-blinding to the civilian cost, so as to forcibly and definitively end it.  It is also self-blinding to the cost of what it does to the soldiers carrying out the purging missions, but that's another story.

Reprisal, collective punishment, or simply what abstractly look like ants when viewed through a high-tech bombsight from 10,000 feet, regardless of the "primary intent", it's unequivocally a crime against humanity.

I couldn't disagree with you more Emmett rolleyes.gif

and I'm certainly not hating wink.gif

Mikel

Isn't the mindset of the terrorist that there are no "innocents"? Isn't that how they justify their actions?

And in answer to your question, in all honesty I don't agree with either side, as I posted earlier. I can't agree or disagree with either sides motivations.

However, I suppose I target Israel for this reason: to say that terrorists are horrible is true. To say that their actions are horrible is true as well. However, to kill civilians as terrorists do, to kill without regard to innocence of actions. To kill someone because they agree with your enemy, though they themselves have never shed blood. To do these things is to become a terrorist. I would like to support Israel or the Arabs in this. I would like to feel like one side is justified in fighting. But in this case, I feel like both sides are using terrorist actions against the other. And I can't support either of them.

I also suppose I just feel a little stronger about the deaths of 100s of civilians in retaliation for the deaths of dozens.

No matter how horrible it is to kill civilians, I feel it is worse to retaliate by killing civilians. To do so makes this a collateral damage war, not a war of armies. Instead of armies fighting, it's the side who loses the most people who loses.

In a war like that, what's to stop anyone from using nuclear weapons? What's to stop the middle east wiping itself off the face of the earth?

Someone has to rise above terrorism. For powerful armies to start using terrorist tactics is terrifying and disheartening. I suppose I place the burden on Israel to be the "bigger" country, morally speaking. I don't see that happening. So that's why I might seem hard on Israel.

Really I feel like this WILL be a matter of might = right in the end.


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Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 31-Jul-2006, 02:17 PM)
Where could I read more about this?

Try here:
The USS Liberty Veterans Association website.
Here's just one quote:
QUOTE
"The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.... It was our shared belief. . .that the attack. . .could not possibly have been an accident.... I am certain that the Israeli pilots [and] their superiors. . .were well aware that the ship was American."
          -- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, US Navy (retired), senior legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry

Having been a member of the SIGINT community myself (albeit airborne, not on a ship), I have long been aware of this bit of treachery. We were all aware of the dangers we faced from our enemies, operating in close proximity to enemy borders in order to gain needed military intelligence; however, we did not expect this from a "friendly" country--the injustice being compounded by the White House-directed cover-up.


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Emmet 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 03:22 PM
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  Isn't the mindset of the terrorist that there are no "innocents"? Isn't that how they justify their actions?
...to say that terrorists are horrible is true. To say that their actions are horrible is true as well. However, to kill civilians as terrorists do, to kill without regard to innocence of actions. To kill someone because they agree with your enemy, though they themselves have never shed blood. To do these things is to become a terrorist.


"All those in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah. In order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops move in."
Haim Ramon, Israeli minister of justice, 7/27/06
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Raven 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 03:29 PM
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I am sure you realize this Emmet but you edited my quote and changed it to suite your response.

BTW I almost forgot

Cause and effect

The Six-Day War (Hebrew: מלחמת ששת הימים transliteration: Milkhemet Sheshet HaYamim, Arabic: حرب الأيام الستة transliteration: ħarb al-ayam as-sita), also known as the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, Six Days' War, or June War, was fought between Israel and the nearby Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. It began when Israel launched a preemptive attack against Egypt following the latter's blockade of Israeli shipping in the Straits of Tiran, removal of UNEF peacekeeping forces from the Sinai, and deployment of military forces in the Sinai on the Israeli border. Jordan in turn attacked the Israeli cities of Jerusalem and Netanya. At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.

That's how war often works. Sometimes the sucker punch can be delivered in Self defense although I would personally never see it that way. So are you saying we should give Texas back to Mexico smile.gif

You are probably right Emmett, I am likely an ignoropottamus smile.gif

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Emmet 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 03:37 PM
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Oh, I see... even though Israel started the war, they're still the victim. Howdeeply stupid of me not to have realized this before!
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Raven 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 03:58 PM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 31-Jul-2006, 03:37 PM)
Oh, I see... even though Israel started the war, they're still the victim. Howdeeply stupid of me not to have realized this before!


I can simply understand what their reasoning was for making a pre-emptive strike.

I don't believe I mention victim or you being stupid Emmett. Obtuse maybe smile.gif

But certainly not stupid!

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Emmet 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 04:03 PM
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Either the IDF is grossly incompetent (not bloody likely), or they're intentionally killing hundreds of civilians in reprisal, which I find not only unjustifiable, but obscene beyond words...although names, like Lidice, Guernica, Oradour-sur-Glane, and Kortelisy come to mind. This isn't self defense; this is mass murder. 


They've never been incompetent in the life of that nation, and they are not starting now. But neither do I think it is sheer reprisal as a primary intent. I think there's a third reading, and in a way it's worse: they've dehumanized the meaning of "collateral damage," if possible, even more than we have, and it has been tabled indefinitely as a matter of moral consideration how many civilians have to be lost to get those SOBs to surrender or get out of there. Hiroshima wasn't a reprisal either. It was self-blinding to the civilian cost, so as to forcibly and definitively end it. It is also self-blinding to the cost of what it does to the soldiers carrying out the purging missions, but that's another story.


Stoirmeil, you might be interested in this: Days of Darkness; Haaretz, 7/31/06

Just in case anyone suspects that all I read is Al Jazeera...
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (Emmet @ 31-Jul-2006, 03:22 PM)

"All those in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah. In order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops move in."
Haim Ramon, Israeli minister of justice, 7/27/06

This much is strategically true -- southern Lebanon is very bad terrain for ground fighting, especially if it's the enemy's turf and he's familiar with it, in which case it's very bad for you and very good for him. So -- clearing the whole thing from the air before going in is a good way to spare your troops ambushes and so forth.

This is a mighty clear example of what I was saying before: a very stern, no-quarter perception of the necessity of collateral damage, and the unwillingness or even the inability to account for the damage as being one human individual at a time. You note the necessity of prefacing this with the first statement: they are all related in some way to Hezbollah. (Even the children?) It justifies whatever you have to do, and recognizes no individual conditions of identity.

Like ice. Dissociation of the facts and deeds from any emotional content. The byproduct of it is that thing we read as unbelievable arrogance and not caring what anyone thinks. Psychologically, that has to be broken up and scattered. What will you do? Drop leaflets on the IDF rank and file troops, bypassing the officers, showing pictures of dismembered children from Qana? This mental position is defended better than that mythical hole in the mountain out in Nevada (?) where they hide Cheney.

The problem is, the ones who can resist exposure are praised and valued by thier superiors. They come to see the coldness and hardness as a rare virtue. One of the eeriest, craziest things I ever read (and I'm looking for the citation, but can't find it) was either Hitler or Goering telling the high ranking officers near the end of the war that this was one of their finest achievements, that the world would unfortunately never know about: that they carried out their extermination duties without spiritually succumbing to them, that they remained human. But it's far from being only a Nazi "achievement" -- the Nazis simply went a little further than most in praising themselves for it.

Where did this quotation of Haim Ranon come from, by the way?

Thanks for the link, Emmet. I think the author is probably going to be on the next tramp steamer heading for Gibralter, before they throw him up against the wall and shoot him. So -- he'll be here with thousands of other "temporary" Israeli expats ("yardim") who end up staying and bringing up their kids here. The flow of moderate intellectuals away from Israel in the last 20 years and the flow of conservative orthodox hawks in (thousands from Brooklyn alone) has changed the "conscience" of the land immensely too.

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Herrerano 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE
Mr Ramon - a close confidant of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert - said "everyone understands that a victory for Hezbollah is a victory for world terror".

He said that in order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops moved in.

He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there could be considered a Hezbollah supporter.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

(emphasis added)


As you can see, the meaning is somewhat different then was previously implied. Context makes a big difference.

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stoirmeil 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 05:19 PM
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OK, I can see that. But there's still a problem -- many people were given neither ample time nor the means to get out. Why do you think those kids were hunkered down in the basement of 3-story building (great way to get buried alive, thinking a basement is a bomb shelter), if they could get out? Do you think they were saying to themselves "Nuh-uh, we hang with Hezbo and we're stayin' right here with our homies!"?

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Herrerano 
Posted: 31-Jul-2006, 05:56 PM
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No, if the events transpired as reported, then it is indeed incredibly sad.

One supposes that those whom had the means fled, and those who didn't hunkered down and stayed, hoping for the best.

One can argue forever that modern technical advances in warfare prove that whenever civilians are killed it was intentional. But that argument presupposes that all of the conditions at a weapons deployment were at least equal to its ideal parameters in design. Sort of a naive viewpoint of war.

If you are interested a fairly comprehensive report of the Qana incident one is given here: The Sydney Morning Herald

Below is an excerpt from the article:

QUOTE
Israeli warplanes struck Qana only hours after Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah threatened to rocket more cities in central Israel if attacks on Lebanon continued.

"There are many cities in central Israel which will come into target range ... if the barbaric aggression on our country and people continues," he said yesterday.

Israel's air force was unaware that civilians were sheltering in a building it bombed in Qana, the military chief said.

"We did not know of the whereabouts of civilians in the village," Lieutenant-General Dan Halutz was quoted as saying by the NRG Maariv website after meeting President Moshe Katsav.

A senior air force commander said a precision-guided bomb was dropped on a home in Qana on the assumption that it was sheltering Hezbollah crews that had fired several volleys of missiles into northern Israel.

"Had we known there were that many civilians inside, especially women and children, we certainly would not have attacked it," the commander told Reuters on condition of anonymity.

Asked how Israel's intelligence services could know about missile launches from Qana but not about the presence of dozens of civilians, the commander said: "We are capable of detecting missile launches because they are very dynamic."

By contrast, he said the civilians appeared to have been holed up in the building for days, and were therefore almost impossible for aerial surveillance systems to discern.



Leo
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