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> Bush Fighting Gay Marriage, Do we need a constitutional amendment?
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Senara 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 11:11 AM
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Before God taught us, no one married. They only lived together. Did you ever hear of cavemen marrying? NO. Marriage was instituted by God, and therefore, absolutely NOT a legal institution.


By who's god, when and how? There have been marriage ceremonies performed by various cultures that don't beleive in your GOD. So their marriages were not valid?

What about those marriages of heterosexual couples that don't beleive in your GOD do they not exist? Do they not have legal rights to estates and medical decisons of their spouses?

Marriage was instituted by HUMANS....GOD was just a good guy/gal whom you beleive in.

If marriage is not a "legal institution" why do couples pay for and sign onto a Marriage license? The church does not require this. They could write it in a book and be done with it. It doesn't need to be filed with the state government if it's not a "legal institution".


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If God made someone a homosexual, that is their cross to bear in life. No one is forcing them to marry a woman, but do NOT marry at all. Unfortunately, they tend to seek the easy way out to express their 'individuality'. And it is not insulting of me to say that my beliefs superceed all others. My religion is based on divine institution, which all others can NOT claim. Of course its doctrines superceed all others. That does NOT mean however, that I am forcing you. I am merely saying what is Right and what is Wrong.


I hear every arguement that God creates in his own image. Then that means God is also homosexual because he creates them. HE also is spiteful and wishes homosexuals not to marry because HE doesn't want people to be just like HIM and have everything HE has. Is that what you're saying here. That's what it sounds like to me. It's human nature to look for easy solutions, the faster the better these days. You even seek the easy way out by hiding behind your religious teachings and accept them as fact rather than open your focus on what is right and wrong.

It is EXTREMELY INSULTING of you to say that your BELIEF SUPERCEEDS ALL OTHERS. Your belief is your belief. While you have every right to it, you have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to force your thoughts, beliefs, rituals, ways of life on me or any other breathing, thinking, living, human being.

What you are saying is what is right and what is wrong based on your religious belief. Not based in factual law. Religious right and wrong is always biased to some degree and shows no acceptance for others viewpoints or others beliefs.

I will not be forced to believe that gay marraige is wrong until someone can tell me why without putting any religious spin on the whole damn thing. I want solid hard proof that it will not work legally. Keep RELIGION out of it!


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jumbleberry_pie 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 08-Jun-2006, 11:02 PM)
The bible is a collection of writings by MEN, compiled by MEN, translated by MEN, RE-translated by MEN (Because they didn't like the way the last group of MEN put it). There is far too much of MAN and far too little of God in the bible to take it seriously.
 

Well put!

Ah...the Bible, that strange collection of documents that have caused so much joy and suffering. I respect and appreciate your opinions Cordelia, but I'd just like to point out that not all Christians interpret the Bible (or Christianity) as condemning of homosexuality, only a minority of Christians believe that the Bible is literally the word of God, and an even smaller number of Christians support using the Bible as a basis for determining American policy.

The funny thing about the Bible is, since it was written an interpreted by so many different people over such a long period of time, a reader can find and/or interpret multiple passages to support just about anything from the abomination of eating shellfish to rightness of slavery (both referenced more often in the Bible than homosexuality).

We could have a long discussion about what the Bible and Christianity does or doesn't say about gay marraige, but why bother when so many Christians have already done it for us here, and here, and here, and here.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what my religious opinion is, or yours, or the writers of the Constitution (who were not Christians by the way). We are not a theocracy, and personal or religious disklike or squeamishness should not be a basis for public policy. Past attempts to codify one religion's dogma into law have not worked (prohibition, miscegenation, limiting women's rights to own property etc) because trying to control the personal behavior of others is a big waste of time.

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emerald-eyedwanderer 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 11:23 AM
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QUOTE (Cordelia @ 09-Jun-2006, 08:39 AM)
I am merely saying what is Right and what is Wrong.

That does NOT mean however, that I am forcing you.

People often confuse their opinions with 'facts'. That's where the trouble lies. I try to be openminded, which is part of the reason I am not religious.

But that's why this is such an important topic, because Bush and others that think his way ARE trying to force us by law. And if God gave us free will who are you to take it away with laws? It's not very respectful to the people who are not Christians. Therefore I could never agree with the religion.


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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 12:05 PM
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You know, I've been reading through this whole topic thread, and it just makes me sad. The venom and hate directed towards the gay community here makes no since to me, especially from Christians.

Throughout history Christians have been persecuted, jailed, killed, tortured, and humiliated for their beliefs. Christians fled their homes and countries to form this country we live in due to this persecution of their beliefs. And even though the bible says Judge not lest ye be judged and Jesus told the mob "Let he amoung you without sin throw the first stone", many use the bible as a weapon against those who go against what they believe to be Right.

Imagine for a moment if the government were to outlaw religion. To say that the only law is the law of the government, and religion is unnecessary and dnagerous. Think about experiences you've had wehre people saw the cross you wore or th Bible you carried and sneered at you in disgust. Think about all the times people have verbally abused you for your beliefs in your god, have told you to take your beliefs behind closed doors, and have been disgusted with you for your faith.

No one forces anyone, ANYONE, to be gay. I agree that it is a choice in some sense, because someone who is gay could choose to try to be straight. They could choose to try and not engage in gay behavior. But why should they have to? They should no more be forced to try to not be gay than Christians should be forced to try to be atheists. If you don't like people openly being gay in the street, holding same sex hands or kissing someone of the same sex, do what I do when I see a heterosexual couple making out. Look away. If you don't like a gay guy hitting on you, do what most women do every single day of their lives (sometimes multiple times daily) and ignore it or walk away. I bet that women have to put up with a lot more crap from straight men hitting on them in lewd or disgusting ways then anyone has to owrry about from a gay person.

Also the bible says that Judgment is up to God. Not people. here on Earth we do not have the right to judge our fellow man for what they choose to do with their lives. If being gay IS such a horrible sin, then homosexuals will have to face Gods judgement, just like the rest of us.

Finally, SIN does not equal LAW. The seven deadly sins, the big seven, most of these are not equaled in our laws. If they were, goodbye fast food, ice cream, and overweight people. Goodbye lazy people without jobs. Goodbye multibillionaires or even millionaires. Goodbye nudie magazines, strip clubs, and you can pretty much wipe out vegas.

As for the children thing, why are there children who come out of abusive families who aren't themselves abusive? Why are their children who become abusers who never were? Why do smart kids come from dumb parents and vice versa? Why to gay people come from straight family models?

Oh, and marriage isn't a natural thing. It's something that came about to secure inheritances. And it's been around a lot longer than the bible. If you want to live by Nature's Laws there are a few areas of unspoiled land still left in the US. I say have fun camping, but I like living with cell phones, computers, and the other Unnatural aspects of life.

Oh, and that whole thing about the gay community being promiscuous? That's an age thing, not a gay thing. Virgins who wait till they are married are hard to come by anymore. Oh, and straight marriages have a big problem with the man and woman going to someone elses bed from what I've heard too.

And you can get STDs from straight sex just as easliy as gay sex. You can also get infections and other nasty things going on.

So, I gues the most important point is, don't wait for God to protect you. Make sure you carry and use condoms people. ::smile


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j Padraig moore 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 12:13 PM
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Another thought from me on this...
For myself, I am not too keen on the idea of gay marriage, but I don't see it as the downfall of our civilization if it occurs. My fear is that if a ban gay marriage amendment is passed, what is next?
Here in Ohio there has been some noise about banning gay adoptions (that is, allowing gays to adopt children). If that is the next target, what comes after? Identifying and banning gays from teaching? How about kicking them out of the workplace? What of the don't ask/don't tell policy of the military?
I am afraid this would just snowball into wholesale discrimination.

It's a tough call...
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Cordelia 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (CelticCoalition @ 09-Jun-2006, 12:05 PM)
You know, I've been reading through this whole topic thread, and it just makes me sad. The venom and hate directed towards the gay community here makes no since to me, especially from Christians.

Throughout history Christians have been persecuted, jailed, killed, tortured, and humiliated for their beliefs. Christians fled their homes and countries to form this country we live in due to this persecution of their beliefs. And even though the bible says Judge not lest ye be judged and Jesus told the mob "Let he amoung you without sin throw the first stone", many use the bible as a weapon against those who go against what they believe to be Right.

No one forces anyone, ANYONE, to be gay. I agree that it is a choice in some sense, because someone who is gay could choose to try to be straight. They could choose to try and not engage in gay behavior. But why should they have to? They should no more be forced to try to not be gay than Christians should be forced to try to be atheists. If you don't like people openly being gay in the street, holding same sex hands or kissing someone of the same sex, do what I do when I see a heterosexual couple making out. Look away. If you don't like a gay guy hitting on you, do what most women do every single day of their lives (sometimes multiple times daily) and ignore it or walk away. I bet that women have to put up with a lot more crap from straight men hitting on them in lewd or disgusting ways then anyone has to owrry about from a gay person.

Also the bible says that Judgment is up to God. Not people. here on Earth we do not have the right to judge our fellow man for what they choose to do with their lives. If being gay IS such a horrible sin, then homosexuals will have to face Gods judgement, just like the rest of us.

Finally, SIN does not equal LAW. The seven deadly sins, the big seven, most of these are not equaled in our laws. If they were, goodbye fast food, ice cream, and overweight people. Goodbye lazy people without jobs. Goodbye multibillionaires or even millionaires. Goodbye nudie magazines, strip clubs, and you can pretty much wipe out vegas.

Oh, and marriage isn't a natural thing. It's something that came about to secure inheritances. And it's been around a lot longer than the bible. If you want to live by Nature's Laws there are a few areas of unspoiled land still left in the US. I say have fun camping, but I like living with cell phones, computers, and the other Unnatural aspects of life.

Oh, and that whole thing about the gay community being promiscuous? That's an age thing, not a gay thing. Virgins who wait till they are married are hard to come by anymore. Oh, and straight marriages have a big problem with the man and woman going to someone elses bed from what I've heard too.

And you can get STDs from straight sex just as easliy as gay sex. You can also get infections and other nasty things going on.

So, I guess the most important point is, don't wait for God to protect you. Make sure you carry and use condoms people. ::smile

There is no venom directed at gays from me! (And I'm not a Christian. I'm a Catholic.) Yes, judgement is up to God. And God explicitly says that homosexual acts are sins. I am not judging them. I don't go around seeing gays and pointing at them physically/mentally and chanting 'Loser, Jerk' or whatever. I do know though, that it is wrong. And it irks me that they do not want to admit it.

Goodbye nudie magazines, strip clubs and vegas? Wonderful! The world would be a better place if it were more innocent.

And believe me you, cavemen did not have need to secure any inheritances. They didn't have any. Marriage is a natural thing.

So, homosexual and heterosexual sex can both contract diseases. Know what the difference is?

Heterosexual disease is often contracted when people live loose, philandering and lacivious lives.

Homosexual disease happens because our bodies were not made for that.
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Rowan 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 01:47 PM
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Hello everyone,

Can I put in my two bits?

I just want to say that the way Cordelia puts it is a little too black and white and harsh.

I am not a theologian but I am a Catholic and my piece is this:

While I don't condone what homosexuals do or agree with the people who side with them, it is not my place to lecture them on what is right or wrong. We are all grown and what we believe in has been firmly planted in our minds and souls.

But I do want to say this; God is not homosexual, and He did not create homosexuals in His Image. He created man in His Image- meaning we can think for ourselves, and we have a free will. I know God is not homosexual because He created Adam and Eve. One man and one woman in the beginning of time. Had He meant for same sexes to be married, He would have created either two men or two women.

As for God being spiteful - take for example a hunchback or a very small person - God created them not for spite but to show the rest of us the possibilites of what could have happened to us in the womb. It makes us aware of what could have gone wrong but didn't, and teaches us to be grateful and more aware. It should make us kinder and more understanding to those more unfortunate than us and to treat them with the same respect we would like others to show us if we were in their shoes.

The same with homosexuals. We don't have to hate them, we don't have to propagate their way of life or thinking. Just respect them and treat them like a normal person. After all they are human, its just that their hormones have gone haywire. It is not the person or persons' fault.

But I do have this to say to some homosexuals - I would like them to respect the straight people as well. Don't try to change them into gays or lesbians. You believe that you have a right to your beliefs, well so do the straight people.

As for those who are straight and for those who side with the homosexuals-all I can say is let it drop. You all could argue to the end of time and the bottom line is the same. You will all believe in whatever you believe no matter what proof is put in front of you. You will always be poking holes in each other's arguments. Just stand back, pray for each other, live and let live, and if you know someone who is homosexual or straight leave them be and enjoy being friends.

Just like there are so many different types of grasses, plants, and flowers - so it is with people. Everyone has a different soul, a different body, a different color, different beliefs, and different backgrounds. We are all God's children so we should help each other, not kill each other off because we are more superior, or more right, or more whatever. No one is perfect. We are all flawed. I'm sure someone will find something wrong with what I have just said. But we all have opinions and are free to them. God gave us free will and unlike us humans, He doesn't strike you down for coming out and giving vent to your opinions. At the end of time, when He comes back-everyone's doubts will be erased, we will understand why God did what He did and, yes, we will also be rewarded and punished as we deserve.


Thank you for taking the time to read this.


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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 01:51 PM
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QUOTE (Cordelia @ 09-Jun-2006, 12:13 PM)
There is no venom directed at gays from me! (And I'm not a Christian. I'm a Catholic.) Yes, judgement is up to God. And God explicitly says that homosexual acts are sins. I am not judging them. I don't go around seeing gays and pointing at them physically/mentally and chanting 'Loser, Jerk' or whatever. I do know though, that it is wrong. And it irks me that they do not want to admit it.

Goodbye nudie magazines, strip clubs and vegas? Wonderful! The world would be a better place if it were more innocent.

And believe me you, cavemen did not have need to secure any inheritances. They didn't have any. Marriage is a natural thing.

So, homosexual and heterosexual sex can both contract diseases. Know what the difference is?

Heterosexual disease is often contracted when people live loose, philandering and lacivious lives.

Homosexual disease happens because our bodies were not made for that.

I don't defferintiate Christians from Catholics. I could have said "People who believe and worship The Holy Bible that has and Old Testament, and New Testament, and talks about Jesus," but to me anyone who believes in the Bible that talks about Jesus is a Christian. I'm sorry if that's offensive to the Catholics out there, but it jsut seems easier to me than mentioning all those faiths by name.

Secondly, I wasn't specifically targeting you Cordelia. I was being more general and meant to include "anyone who holds hate or disgust towards homosexuals, especially christians who do so".

If you are saying that a person who is gay needs to behave in a manner that you approve of by law, then you are judging that person. You are judging that behavior to warrant being made illegal and you are judging the person ingaging in that activity as unlawful.

I do not believe that laws in this country should be made simply because someone doesn't agree with the behavior. Notice I am saying simply, as in that is the only reason. There has yet to be made a non moral or religious reason for banning gay marriage. There's been a lot of talk about it being disgusting, or ungodly, etc. However, this is not the criteria used to make laws in this country. If it was, we would be a theocracy.

I don't know that cavemen had marriage certificates. I don't even really know that cavemen had laws. I'm not even aware of caveman sexual practices. I haven't read any studies showing cavemen didn't engage in homosexual activities, so I can't discoust the possibility that early man engaged in homosexual relationships. I also don't know of studies discounting homosexual marriage practices of cavemen. I haven't studied ancient human marriage practices, but I do know for a fact that they weren't based on anything in the Bible. Nor were ancient chinese or egyptian models of marriage. However, that is neither here nr there because the model of marriage has changed. We now have divorce, adultery isn't punishable by death, woman aren't sold into marriage, and although marriages are arranged, they are not the sole marriage model in the US.

Religion should not be an issue here. Whether or not any church conducts a relgious marriage ceremony for gays is not at issue. Were homosexual marriages to be legalized, churchs could refuse to acknowledge or perform the marriage ceremony. The issue is a legal one, not a religous one. And no one is saying anyone has to like gays getting married.

However, just like people cannot be denied their religous beliefs, gays should not be denied legal marriage. If anyone doesn't like it, just think about the fact that the only reason we are even allowed to talk about this is the freedoms we have in the country. And just remember that it wasn't so long ago that people couldn't choose who they married themselves.

Just because people don't like or agree with something doesn't mean it should be illegal. There are a lot of people who don't like the Holy Bible or wht it says. Should reading the Bible be illegal? Should religous marriages be made illegal and only civil ceremonies conducted by a Judge be allowed by law?
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Rowan 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 02:17 PM
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That's true- if everything were to be based on legalities- you could illegalize the entire world. We wouldn't be able to do a thing. Come to think of it this argument is getting to be humorous.

Like I said- Live and let live.

Why not turn our brains to more important matters. Like helping the homeless, the starving, the unemployed. These people need our attention and help but we aren't giving it to them. Instead, we indulge in petty arguments while the rest of the world out there is suffering from lack of food, jobs, and homes. Desperate parents in Africa give their children away thinking that the children are going to get work. Instead, the children are being sold as prostitutes for the rich people. How sick can this world get!?

Everything going on now, even homosexuality, has been going on since time immemorial. What we can do right now, is do what we can to make this world a better place for ourselves, our children, and also each other.
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Rowan 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 02:23 PM
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To emerald-eyedwanderer:

No offense, but I am a Catholic, yet I too try to be open-minded. Even a non-religious person can be very narrow-minded. I've met some who are so fixed they'd get in a rage with you over the smallest thing. But yes its sadly true, some religious people are so close-minded and that's a sad thing. It makes the Church seem like an ogre, a dragon, instead of the loving Mother the way God ordained her to be.
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Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 05:06 PM
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QUOTE (Cordelia @ 09-Jun-2006, 09:35 AM)
WRONG! Before God taught us, no one married. They only lived together. Did you ever hear of cavemen marrying? NO. Marriage was instituted by God, and therefore, absolutely NOT a legal institution.

Is that right? Hmmmm. I believe it is men in this country that govern marriage. They create policy and procedure for its license (there's a key word) and spell out the benefits and penalties for marriage. Use semantics all you wish, marriage in our modern age is a human issue, and is one that need not be entered into with any endorsement of the church. Or have you never heard of a marriage conducted by a Magistrate or Notary Public. There are many non-religious people authorized by governments to conduct marriage.

In ancient biblical times, the ceremonial part of marriage was little more than a romp in a tent. I think you probably know that. For many people, that is all that is required to become married in the eyes of God. It could be true. But for our society's sake, the government sets up law. Since you are so adamant that marriage is not a legal institution, please tell the class how it is we have marriage law.


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Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 05:12 PM
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QUOTE (Rowan @ 09-Jun-2006, 07:47 PM)
Hello everyone,

Can I put in my two bits?

I just want to say that the way Cordelia puts it is a little too black and white and harsh.

I am not a theologian but I am a Catholic and my piece is this:

While I don't condone what homosexuals do or agree with the people who side with them, it is not my place to lecture them on what is right or wrong. We are all grown and what we believe in has been firmly planted in our minds and souls.

But I do want to say this; God is not homosexual, and He did not create homosexuals in His Image. He created man in His Image- meaning we can think for ourselves, and we have a free will. I know God is not homosexual because He created Adam and Eve. One man and one woman in the beginning of time. Had He meant for same sexes to be married, He would have created either two men or two women.

As for God being spiteful - take for example a hunchback or a very small person - God created them not for spite but to show the rest of us the possibilites of what could have happened to us in the womb. It makes us aware of what could have gone wrong but didn't, and teaches us to be grateful and more aware. It should make us kinder and more understanding to those more unfortunate than us and to treat them with the same respect we would like others to show us if we were in their shoes.

The same with homosexuals. We don't have to hate them, we don't have to propagate their way of life or thinking. Just respect them and treat them like a normal person. After all they are human, its just that their hormones have gone haywire. It is not the person or persons' fault.

But I do have this to say to some homosexuals - I would like them to respect the straight people as well. Don't try to change them into gays or lesbians. You believe that you have a right to your beliefs, well so do the straight people.

As for those who are straight and for those who side with the homosexuals-all I can say is let it drop. You all could argue to the end of time and the bottom line is the same. You will all believe in whatever you believe no matter what proof is put in front of you. You will always be poking holes in each other's arguments. Just stand back, pray for each other, live and let live, and if you know someone who is homosexual or straight leave them be and enjoy being friends.

Just like there are so many different types of grasses, plants, and flowers - so it is with people. Everyone has a different soul, a different body, a different color, different beliefs, and different backgrounds. We are all God's children so we should help each other, not kill each other off because we are more superior, or more right, or more whatever. No one is perfect. We are all flawed. I'm sure someone will find something wrong with what I have just said. But we all have opinions and are free to them. God gave us free will and unlike us humans, He doesn't strike you down for coming out and giving vent to your opinions. At the end of time, when He comes back-everyone's doubts will be erased, we will understand why God did what He did and, yes, we will also be rewarded and punished as we deserve.


Thank you for taking the time to read this.

I stand with Rowan on this. she speaks exactly what is on my mind. She speaks wisely and true. I think that the entire thread should end on just that. If we're wise, we would do so.




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Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 05:17 PM
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You know... way back when, before there was a world wide web... I used to be on several BBSs (Bulletin Board Service) and there were two topics guaranteed to inflame 9 out of ten people. Religion and politics. I used to have fun by making one little political or religious comment and then watch the entire chat room explode.

Now though, it doesn't seem like as much fun as it did 20 years ago.


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Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 05:35 PM
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I also think that this thread should end before tempers start to rise and things are said that shouldn't be said. I forgot to add that to my last post...
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Cordelia 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 05:55 PM
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Oh, Rowan, sister dear, you are a true diplomat! I salute you and thank you. You are right. I guess I was too grating.

I hope you all will accept my apologies for being so discordant.
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