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> Bush Fighting Gay Marriage, Do we need a constitutional amendment?
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Cordelia 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 09:50 PM
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You can all shout me down, but my opinion is this. I have pretty strong opinions about this, and here are my reasons.

A Christian expert stated: "Gender, race and impairment all relate to what a person is, whereas homosexuality relates to what a person does."

Being gay IS the way you are made. Doing the sexual act IS the sinful part.

The Bible does not condone this, and it is explicitly laid down in Genesis, Chapters 1 and 2.

'male and female He created them' (Genesis 1:27). We were created to a plan—male and female complementing each other. That is, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, nor Madam and Eve.

God instituted and designed marriage between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:18-25). There are a number of reasons why He did so.

Quote from a website:

1. The complementary structure of the male and female anatomy is obviously designed for the normal husband-wife relationships. Clearly, design in human biology supports heterosexuality and contradicts homosexuality.
2. The combination of male and female enables man (and the animals) to produce and nurture offspring as commanded in Genesis 1:28—'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth'. This command is repeated to Noah after the Flood (Genesis 8:15-17). But procreation is not the only reason God made humans as sexual beings. The BUWA report affirms 'that sexual intimacy between husband and wife is good, and is intended by God for bonding, pleasure and procreation.'7
3. Thirdly, God gave man and woman complementary roles in order to strengthen the family unit. Woman was to be the helper that man needed (Genesis 2:18). However, the woman's role as the helpmate is certainly not an inferior one. The enterprising God-fearing woman in Proverbs 31:10-31 is an inspiring role model.

No harm?

Andrew Lansdown points out that 'homosexual activity is notoriously disease-prone. In addition to diseases associated with heterosexual promiscuity, homosexual actions facilitate the transmission of anal herpes, hepatitis B, intestinal parasites, Kaposi's Sarcoma and AIDS.'1 Research on the life expectancy of a group of homosexual men in Canada in the early 1990s indicated that they could expect 8-21 years less lifespan than other men.8
Effect on others

Secular psychologists assure us that 'children raised in lesbian and gay households are similar to children raised in heterosexual households on characteristics such as intelligence, development, moral judgments, self-concepts, social competence and gender identity'.6 The humanists have, however, forgotten one important ingredient.

'Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it' (Proverbs 22:6).

You cannot faithfully teach God's Word to your children while living a lifestyle specifically condemned by God's Word. All Christians are sinners forgiven by God's grace, but living in a homosexual relationship constitutes habitual, unrepented sin.
Nobody else's business?

Gay activists claim that homosexual activity is nobody's business other than those involved in the relationship. However, this is not true. God, our Designer and Creator, has authority over all aspects of our lives. He makes the rules, and He quite specifically forbids homosexual behavior.

'You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination' (Leviticus 18:22; see also Leviticus 20:13).

Disobedience of such a clear command indicates rejection of God's authority.

Some people argue that the Old Testament law (including Leviticus 18 and 20) was superseded with the coming of Christ. However, we should at least consider as binding those aspects of the law that are renewed in the New Testament. The teaching of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 was certainly reaffirmed in the New Testament.
Equally valid?

Some people claim that homosexual behavior was only condemned in the Bible because it was associated with idolatry (e.g. 1 Kings 14:24). However, it is clearly condemned apart from idolatry as well (e.g. Leviticus 18:22). It is described in Scripture as an unnatural, immoral perversion.

'For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another...' (Romans 1:26-27).

The Greek word arsenokoitai used in 1 Timothy 1:10 literally means 'men who sleep with men'. It is the same Greek word used for 'homosexual offender' in 1 Corinthians 6:9, variously translated as 'abusers of themselves with mankind' (KJV), homosexuals (NASB) or homosexual offender (NIV).

Some people claim that the sin involved in Sodom was rejecting hospitality customs or selfishness rather than homosexual behaviour. Certainly, the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah was great and their reported sin was grievous to God (Genesis 18:20). God sent angels to Sodom and...

'Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sex with them”' (Genesis 19:4-5).

"While it is true that the Hebrew word yadha does not necessarily mean 'to have sex with,' nonetheless in the context of Sodom and Gommorah, it clearly had this meaning. ...It means 'to know sexually' in this very chapter when Lot refers to his two daughters not having 'known' a man (19:8)."9 You would not offer virgins to appease a mob if their sin was lack of hospitality, but only if their desire was sexual.

Although Ezekiel 16:49 condemns Sodom for its selfishness with regard to poverty etc., this does not contradict its condemnation for homosexual practices. "The very next verse of Ezekiel (v. 50) calls their sin an "abomination". This is the same Hebrew word used to describe homosexual sins in Leviticus 18:22."10

It is also used in Scripture to describe such things like the practice of offering children to Moloch, but never such things as mere selfishness or lack of hospitality. Even in legal parlance, the word used to refer to one aspect of homosexual practice is 'sodomy'.

Another argument is that Jonathon and David were homosexuals as 'Jonathan “loved” David (1 Sam. 18:3), that Jonathan stripped in David's presence (18:4), [and] that they kissed each other (20:41)'.11

However, 'David's “love” for Jonathan was not sexual (erotic) but a friendship (philic) love. And Jonathan did not strip himself of all his clothes, but only of his armor and royal robe (1 Sam. 18:4).'12 Also, a kiss was a normal greeting in that day, such as when Judas kissed Jesus. In several cultures today, men normally greet each other with a kiss, too. Further, David's love for his wives, especially Bathsheba (2 Samuel 11), clearly reveals his heterosexual orientation.

Isaiah 56:3 states that eunuchs will not be excluded from God's presence ('my temple'), but practising homosexuals are not eunuchs. Eunuchs have no sexual relations at all.

Other scriptural arguments for homosexuality can similarly be easily refuted. It is clear that heterosexual marriage is the only form of marriage sanctioned in the Bible and that homosexual practice is always condemned.
Punishment

The Bible not only describes homosexual behavior as detestable, but it also calls for the punishment of those involved (Leviticus 20:13). Their unrepentant attitude caused God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24-25).

Just as homosexual conduct has been punished in the past, so it will also be punished by God in the future.

"...Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

Hope

However, there is hope for the homosexual. God forgives and cleanses a person who repents and turns from their sin, including the sin of homosexual behavior (1 Corinthians 6:11). As well as forgiveness, God's grace brings with it the power to live a life that is pleasing to God (Romans 6:6-7). If repentance and reform are genuine, prior homosexual actions should not be a bar to church membership or ministry, as all Christians are reformed sinners.

'Liberal' churches espouse tolerance of homosexual behavior in the name of 'love'. They plug for the acceptance of homosexual conduct as normal, 'because they can't help it'. They are not only wrong about the latter, but they are actually not being at all loving towards homosexuals, because, contrary to the Bible, they reduce the homosexual person to the level of an animal, driven by instinct. In removing moral responsibility from the person, they dehumanize them, whereas the Bible says we are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27), with the power of moral choice.

Furthermore, the gospel proclaims liberation from the bondage of sin, including homosexual sin, whereas the 'liberals' tell the homosexual that they cannot help it, and they can't help them either, so they will accept them as they are! However, many a person has been gloriously rescued from the bondage of homosexual sin (and other sin) by the power of the Holy Spirit, but only Bible-believing Christians can offer such hope.13
Conclusion

As with all moral issues, our beliefs about our origin determine our attitude. If we believe that we arose from slime by a combination of random chance events and the struggle for survival, it is understandable to say that there is no higher authority, and we can make our own rules. However, if there is a loving God who planned us and gave commands for us to follow, then we must do so. God has set forth His standards in the Bible, beginning with the foundational teaching in the book of Genesis.
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emerald-eyedwanderer 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 10:36 PM
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But then not everyone is religious and believes that laws should be made by what the bible tells us. Just for an example, I am not religious, I do not believe in the bible. So in a 'free' country am I to be told who I can or cannot marry because the president is a religious man? Or because a certain group of people think they know what is best for me? I thought there was that whole seperation of state and church thing... you know make our own decisions based on our own beliefs... unsure.gif But there is always going to be discrimination in the world. Just happens to be the gay community at this moment in American news.


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Cordelia 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 10:47 PM
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[I]DARN!![/] You know, whether you believe it or not, God DID make you, and although you have free will, you ought to know that there ARE divine rules in this world!
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Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 11:02 PM
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The rules of the universe are the ONLY rules that governany of us. The bible is a collection of writings by MEN, compiled by MEN, translated by MEN, RE-translated by MEN (Because they didn't like the way the last group of MEN put it). There is far too much of MAN and far too little of God in the bible to take it seriously.
Had my people killed the first "Black Robes" that came to them, and KEPT killing them, they would be MUCH better off today. They did FAR more damage with the bible than the Blue Coats with their rifles.


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Cordelia 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 11:15 PM
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And what are the rules of the universe?
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 11:28 PM
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Gravity, something will ALWAYS seek to fill a vacuum,water will seek it's own level, the sun is the source of all life, etc. Surley at your age these don't need to be explained.


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SCShamrock 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 12:11 AM
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After reading the replies to this topic, I see that the overwhelming majority of the opinions here are based on emotion, regardless of which side of the issue the person falls (with just a wee few exceptions). Antwn's was the one post that stood out from the crowd, as it addressed so much of the outcry of the proponents to gay marriage-- "what gives anyone the right to tell people who they can and cannot marry." The answer was exactly right. Marriage is a legal institution. We the people elect representatives to write law. So yes, the legislative branch of government has more than a right to pass marriage law (including controversial gender issues) but also an obligation to do so as circumstance requires it. Whoa, open door for racial input!!! Actually, no. There is nothing pressing the legislature to write race laws for marriage, so it's not an issue for us at this time.

Do gays really want this issue to be decided by "the people?" I doubt it seriously. During the 2004 elections, this issue was brought before the people in 5 states, and struck down in 5 states (liberal ones too!) so there's no reason anyone who wishes to see the day gay marriage is nationally legal would want it to come to a popular vote. Honestly, seeing the persistence of those who fight for homosexuals rights, I can't imagine a ban on gay marriage silencing them anyway.

Now for my personal view. I have little experience observing gay people, so my opinions are not necessarily dependable. There is a lesbian couple living across the street from me. They have been there for 8 years, although I do not know how long they have been a couple. I love them dearly. One of the ladies is likely only recently gay, since she has a 19 year old daughter and is around 46 years old. My neighbors never show affection in my presence, so I have never had to deal with the reality that would drive home for me. I would consider my experience with my neighbors to be a very good one. Before this, I lived in Asheville North Carolina for 7 years. The homosexual population there is tremendous. My observations there were entirely different from the one here. I saw an extremely high level of promiscuity among the gay men I worked around, even among those who had live-in lovers. I had several gay men hit on me even though they knew I was married--it seemed inconsequential to them. Almost all of my experiences around gay people in NC were unsettling. Regardless of these though, I have opinions. I find homosexuality repugnant. Being around gay men, especially the highly effeminate ones, makes me want to vomit. Even my neighbors, if I saw them holding each other and being even remotely intimate, I would be sufficiently grossed out to not want to be around them.......ever. I can't help how I feel, nor do I want to. So personally, I hope gay marriage NEVER becomes endorsed by our government.


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Swanny 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 12:42 AM
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At the moment we are discussing about whether gay marriage should be endorsed by the government, but rather whether it should be outlawed by the government via a constitutional ammendment. They are two entirely different things, in my mind anyway.

Here's a poor analogy. Smoking tobacco is neither endorsed nor outlawed, but smoking marijuana is outlawed.

Thus far I haven't heard of any sort of major social movement to endorse homosexuality, only a religion-driven movement to outlaw it. As far as I'm concerned every single person in this great Nation is entitled to practice their own religion as they see fit, but no one has the right to force others to do so.

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SCShamrock 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 01:11 AM
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QUOTE (Swanny @ 09-Jun-2006, 12:42 AM)
At the moment we are discussing about whether gay marriage should be endorsed by the government, but rather whether it should be outlawed by the government via a constitutional ammendment. They are two entirely different things, in my mind anyway.

I gotcha Swanny........ever eager to set a person straight. Fine, I'll rephrase.rolleyes.gif

"So personally, I hope gay marriage is banned by constitutional amendment."

The opinion is still the same, and the attitude is still unapologetic.

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Sonee 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 01:36 AM
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QUOTE (Cordelia @ 08-Jun-2006, 09:47 PM)
[I]DARN!![/] You know, whether you believe it or not, God DID make you, and although you have free will, you ought to know that there ARE divine rules in this world!

Now you are trying to say that your beliefs superceed everyone else's "whether they believe it or not." Because YOU believe in God and because YOU believe that the Bible is his "devine rules" for us to live by, then it must be true and we ALL must believe it like it or not. That is incredibly selfish and, unforturnately, a common theme professed by many Christians. It's actually kind of insulting.

I can also see the reaction many Christians will/are having to Dogshirts post. " the Bible may have been written by men but it was INSPIRED by God. They were writing it on his behalf." How do you all know that? Because the book itself says so? Because the people who actually wrote the words lived in the time that Jesus did so they should know? Kind of flimsy reasoning if you ask me. It rather frightens me that the people running this country are allowing their belief in a book to shade their decisions.

I haven't read it but didn't Mein Kompf (sp) say that anyone other than white Christians were evil abominations against God and should be eliminated? Since a book said so does that make it true?

If homosexuality is something a person is born with doesn't that mean that your God made them too? Why would he "create" someone he then would tell you was wrong? Did he make a mistake? It's my understanding that he isn't capable of making "mistakes". So then being homosexual can't be a mistake, right?

Jedi made the point that the writers of the Constitution and Dec. of Indep. thought of marriage as between a man and a woman, as did everyone else, so it didn't need clarified. When Thomas Jefferson penned the original Dec. of Indep. he in absolutely no way included blacks or women when he said "all men are created equal". He felt it was understood that it was only land holding white men who were created equal to the English land holding white men they were rebelling against. Do you think if he were writing that very document today he would have felt differently? Don't you think he would have included blacks and women? If the founding father's made that "mistake" in their documents isn't possible that they could have made another? And, just for the record, Jefferson never intended this document to be a governing document. It's only purpose was to let the King of England know that they no longer wanted to be under his rule and why.

When it comes to discussion of this type of hot button issue i.e. homosexuality, abortion, etc, Christians always point to the Bible and say "it's wrong because this BOOK says it wrong and God wrote this BOOK, end of subject." Again, not everyone believes in God or the Bible so that implies that a Christians opinion and/or beliefs are the only one's that count. I personally believe in a higher being as I see no other way, really, for us all to have gotten here. However, I think the Bible is nothing more than a man-made book designed to elevate certain people, specifically men, into positions of power and scare everyone else with hellfire and damnation so they bow to that power. According to your Bible women have no voice. Anything they want to say should be filtered through their fathers, husbands, brothers in that order. They can have no position in the church and their husbands word is law. Any Christian woman who is posting in the forum is going against the Bible because you aren't allowed to publically voice your opinions. If you follow your book that is. Pretty convenient that Christians can pick and choose what parts of the bible they follow and what parts they don't but somone who chooses to follow none of it is just plain wrong and needs to be "saved".

To sum up my rather lengthy post (sorry, wasn't intentional!) the bible isn't, to me, a valid source for changing laws as not everyone believes it's the word of God. If you Christians want to use it to base your opinions on, more power to ya, but don't foist those opinions on the rest of the world as absolute fact. Also, to the statement that homosexuality promotes disease,: do hetro's then, not get anal herepes, hepititus B, or any of the other things you listed? It's my understanding that sexually transmitted diseases know no gender or sexual orientation. Any form of promiscuous sex could result in any of these diseases. Blood transfusions have been known to spread diseases so, should outlaw them too?

To each his own, and live and let live.


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Senara 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 08:44 AM
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I really am enjoying the discussion on this subject. A lot of differing opionions and some valid points to every post.

Just reading what was posted last night/early this morning and I come back to two basic principles.

1. Marriage is a religious/spiritual certified oath that forms a bond between two individuals. It is a ceremony performed by an elder and witnessed by friends and family. It is a signature on a "license" to submit to the governing body to legally say these two individuals will now share their lives together.

2. This nation has too many religious to allow only one to control what laws and rules are drafted. Unfortunately since the dawn of time our history and laws have been determined by the male half of the species. They drew pictures on cave walls, they deciphered the writings on the walls, they translated the drawings to a new language, and re-translated and re-translated until we have what we know today. Man's Law. Not Woman's Law, not Nature's Law. Man's Law. That's what this world has lived by for Ages. Even still our government is run under Man's Law...the women in congress are only there because they believe in Man's Law. Sad to say but in so many ways true.

The Christian God, the Arab God, the Gods and Godesses of Greece/Egypt/and other ancient civilizations are no better than any of their other "Holy" counterparts. They were all worshiped by their followers in the same way using similar rituals. It is only that one group of followers is nosey enough that they have to jump into everyone's lives and for some reason save them from something.

If you want to ban gay marriage from your religious order fine do so. That is your religious ceremony. Perform it however you wish.

Legally, that little piece of paper, should not be denied to any American no matter who they decide to marry.



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celticpatterson 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 09:22 AM
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TO SOME ,THIS IS A SERIOUS ISSUE.FOR MYSELF-AS iam A CHRISTIAN FOREMOST.I BELIEVE IT COUNTS.I dont AGREE WITH BUSH,ABOUT ANYTHING. BUT, AGAIN IAM CONCERNED,ABOUT THIS WHOLE SITUATION. EITHER WAY FOR OR AGAINST,LEGAL MATTERS-ACCORDING TO THE LAW-MUST BE ADDRESSED! SO FOR OR AGAINST WE ALL ARE GOING TO HEAR IT!! AND IT'S NOT JUST BUSH. BUT, BOTH SIDES HAVE AGENDA. MY KIDS ARE IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL,THEY NOW ARE BEING PUSHED TO READ CARTOON BOOKS STATING THAT, IT'S OK GO KISS,(FRENCH KISS) SOMEONE OF THE SAME SEX. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!!! NOBODY!!-SHOULD INFLUENCE THE KIDS ABOUT SEXUALITY. EVERY ONE HAS THEIR OWN BELIEFS!! NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO PUT ANYBODY DOWN, GAY OR NOT. IAM A CHRISTIAN!! EITHER WAY I LIKE EVERYONE, HAS THE RIGHT TO FIGHT AND/OR EXPRESS OUR FEELINGS. I SERVED IN THE MARINES, AND I'LL EXPRESS MY FEELINGS.........MY TAKE BECAUSE OF MY BELIEF I KNOW WHAT ,THE BIBLE STATES-THRU HOLY SCRIPTURE ABOUT GAYS. BUT, SOME CHRISTIANS FORGET THAT TO GOD,ALL SIN IS JUST AS BAD, AS OTHER SIN. NO ONE IS PERFECT...... MICHAEL PATTERSON
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Cordelia 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 09:35 AM
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QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 09-Jun-2006, 12:11 AM)
Antwn's was the one post that stood out from the crowd, as it addressed so much of the outcry of the proponents to gay marriage-- "what gives anyone the right to tell people who they can and cannot marry." The answer was exactly right. Marriage is a legal institution.

WRONG! Before God taught us, no one married. They only lived together. Did you ever hear of cavemen marrying? NO. Marriage was instituted by God, and therefore, absolutely NOT a legal institution.
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Cordelia 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE (Sonee @ 09-Jun-2006, 01:36 AM)
Now you are trying to say that your beliefs superceed everyone else's "whether they believe it or not." Because YOU believe in God and because YOU believe that the Bible is his "devine rules" for us to live by, then it must be true and we ALL must believe it like it or not. That is incredibly selfish and, unforturnately, a common theme professed by many Christians. It's actually kind of insulting.

I can also see the reaction many Christians will/are having to Dogshirts post. " the Bible may have been written by men but it was INSPIRED by God. They were writing it on his behalf." How do you all know that? Because the book itself says so? Because the people who actually wrote the words lived in the time that Jesus did so they should know? Kind of flimsy reasoning if you ask me. It rather frightens me that the people running this country are allowing their belief in a book to shade their decisions.

I haven't read it but didn't Mein Kompf (sp) say that anyone other than white Christians were evil abominations against God and should be eliminated? Since a book said so does that make it true?

If homosexuality is something a person is born with doesn't that mean that your God made them too? Why would he "create" someone he then would tell you was wrong? Did he make a mistake? It's my understanding that he isn't capable of making "mistakes". So then being homosexual can't be a mistake, right?

If God made someone a homosexual, that is their cross to bear in life. No one is forcing them to marry a woman, but do NOT marry at all. Unfortunately, they tend to seek the easy way out to express their 'individuality'. And it is not insulting of me to say that my beliefs superceed all others. My religion is based on divine institution, which all others can NOT claim. Of course its doctrines superceed all others. That does NOT mean however, that I am forcing you. I am merely saying what is Right and what is Wrong.
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Cordelia 
Posted: 09-Jun-2006, 09:41 AM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 08-Jun-2006, 11:28 PM)
Gravity, something will ALWAYS seek to fill a vacuum,water will seek it's own level, the sun is the source of all life, etc. Surley at your age these don't need to be explained.


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I know. I was being sarcastic/sardonic. Surely at your age, I don't need to explain this to you!
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