Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )



Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> Bush Fighting Gay Marriage, Do we need a constitutional amendment?
Bookmark and Share
CelticCoalition 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 03:26 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Celtic Guardian
Group Icon

Group: Ireland
Posts: 561
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
ZodiacReed


male





Hers'a funny thing I saw in an e-mail related to this topic:

28 reasons to ban gay marriage:

1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses, polyester, and birth control.
2. Marriage is valuable because it produces children, which is why we deny marriage rights to infertile couples and old people.
3. Obviously, gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
4. Straight marriage, such as Britney Spears' 55-hour escapade, will be less meaningful if gay marriage is allowed.
5. Marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all: women are property, matches are arranged in childhood, blacks can't marry whites, Catholics can't marry Jews, divorce is illegal, and adultery is punishable by death.
6. Gay marriage should be decided by people, not the courts, because majority-elected legislatures have historically protected the rights of minorities.
7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.
8. There is no separation between religious marriage and legal marriage, because there is no separation of church and state.
9. Devout, faithful Anglicans should never accept same-sex marriage, because it is an affront to the traditional family values upheld by Henry VIII and his wife, Catherine of Aragon, and his wife, Anne Boleyn, and his wife, Jane Seymour, and his wife, Anne of Cleves, and his wife, Catherine Howard, and his wife, Catherine Parr. They all knew the meaning of marriage and none of them lost their heads over the matter.
10. Married gay people will encourage others to be gay, in a way that unmarried gay people do not.
11. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because dogs have legal standing and can sign marriage contracts.
12. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to legislative change in general, which could possibly include the legalization of polygamy and incest. Because we dont know what comes next, we should never change our laws.
13. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.
14. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new social norms because we haven't adapted to things like suburban malls and tupperware parties.
15. Legal marriage will inspire gays to mimic the straight traditions of spiritual commitment ceremonies and celebratory parties, which is currently impermissible for them to do and which they have never done before.
16. Marriage is designed to protect the well-being of children. Gay people do not need marriage because they never have children from prior relationships, artificial insemination or surrogacy, or adoption.
17. Civil unions are a good option because "separate but equal" institutions are always constitutional. In fact, compared with marriage, civil unions are so attractive that straight people are calling dibs on them.
18. A man should not be able to marry whomever a woman can marry, and a woman should not be able to marry whomever a man can marry, because in this country we do not believe in gender equality.
19. If gays marry, some of straight people's tax dollars would end up going to families whose structure they may find morally objectionable. Clearly, it is more just to continue taking gay people's tax dollars to support straight families, who are going to heaven regardless of what anyone else thinks of them.
20. Gays should hold off on the marriage question until society is more accepting of them, because they are not part of society.
21. The people's voice must be heard on this issue. Therefore, we must have a referendum on a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage, because we can't think of any other way to discuss the issue.
22. Each state should decide for itself whether gay marriage will be recognized, because there is no "full faith and credit" clause that requires states to recognize each other's institutions.
23. Gay marriage attempts to replace natural heterosexual instinct with a cultural institution. Morality demands that we subordinate institutionalized commitment to raw, unfettered, biological impulse.
24. Gay marriages could very well suffer maladies like domestic violence and substance abuse. That's why we invented the Quality Control department to pre-approve the righteousness of all marriage applicants, such as convicted serial killer Richard Ramirez who married a woman while on Death Row.
25. Those who support gay marriage aim to overthrow the dominant culture, as evidenced by their enthusiasm to participate in it.
26. The country can't afford to provide benefits for married gay couples. That's why Bush would never consider spending $150 million on programs that encourage more straight people to get married.
27. Gay couples do not deserve marriage because, if everyone on earth limited themselves to same-sex sexual behavior, humanity would soon be extinct. Based on the same concern, we also deny marriage rights to the biologically childless and to those who have borne only one child. (We are also considering denying marriage rights to those who have borne three or more children, because if everyone copied them, the world population would shoot through the roof.)
28. Marriage was created in the Bible as a bond between a man and a woman. The people who lived prior to the writing of the Bible, such as the Chinese, sat around in confusion for many years until the Mesopotamians finally came around and invented the family unit.



--------------------
user posted imageuser posted imageuser posted image
May those who love us love us
And those who don't love us
May God turn their hearts,
And if He doesn't turn their hearts,
May He turn their ankles,
So we'll know them by their limping.
PMEmail Poster               
Top
jumbleberry_pie 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 04:35 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Peasant
*

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 15
Joined: 12-Apr-2006
ZodiacOak

Realm: in music-induced bliss in Washington, DC

female





QUOTE (Senara @ 08-Jun-2006, 03:20 PM)
if enough estrogen was pumped into a dude it could be possible for them to lactate is my understanding...ladies can correct me if you so wish

Not to get off too far off topic but I just wanted to back up Senara: men can lactate and breastfeed if given hormones. I studied anthropology in college, and this was a favorite topic of discussion in classes. Male Lactation can also be a side affect of some medical treatments and in some species, both the males and females breastfeed their young.

BTW, I've really enjoyed reading all the opinions in this thread. I live in Washington, DC and generally get burned out on political discussion rather quickly... but you guys are such a smart fabulous bunch of people! To add a lighthearted note to the discussion, here's a link to a clip from the Daily Show where Jon Stewart puts the smack-down on a anti- gay marriage dude.

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/in...?ml_video=70273




--------------------
Hold fast to dreams
For if dreams die
Life is a broken-winged bird
That cannot fly.
Hold fast to dreams
For when dreams go
Life is a barren field
Frozen with snow.
-Langston Hughes
PMEmail Poster               
Top
McKenna 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 05:05 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Servant
**

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 43
Joined: 24-May-2006
ZodiacOak

Realm: Los Angeles, CA

female





QUOTE (jedibowers @ 08-Jun-2006, 02:46 PM)
Now logically speaking, gay couples are not suppost to happen. Sex is to be pleasurable but also to make babies.

So is that all that marriage is for...making babies? What if you are a women unable to give birth....or one like me who plans to adopt? Does that mean that my right to marriage is forfeit?

Again, just trying to understand and not attack at all. You shouldn't have to "admit" your Christian. Good for you! I know plenty of good Christians... They are getting a bad rap due to the nutballs out there that mainstream media covers.

Again all the emphasis on SEX. Who cares? Sex is a physical gift God gave to us but its not the be all/end all definition of everything about us. Eventually it doesn't even so much importance really anymore, esp with some who has been in a partnership for many years like myself.

What is really important is the spiritual bond btw the couple and what they contribute to society. Don't you think?



--------------------
There is a vitality, a life-force, an energy, a quickening that is translated through you into action and because there is only one of you in all of time, this expression is unique. And if you block it, it will never exist through any other medium and be lost. -martha graham
PMEmail PosterUsers Website My Photo Album               View My Space Profile.
Top
jedibowers 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 05:17 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Knight of the Round Table
Group Icon

Group: Founder
Posts: 163
Joined: 06-Jan-2006
ZodiacHazel

Realm: Fishers, IN

male

Medieval Kingdom
Rank #5
2,147,483,647 Gold!


Clan: AWARE



QUOTE (McKenna @ 08-Jun-2006, 06:05 PM)
So is that all that marriage is for...making babies? What if you are a women unable to give birth....or one like me who plans to adopt? Does that mean that my right to marriage is forfeit?

Again, just trying to understand and not attack at all. You shouldn't have to "admit" your Christian. Good for you! I know plenty of good Christians... They are getting a bad rap due to the nutballs out there that mainstream media covers.

Again all the emphasis on SEX. Who cares? Sex is a physical gift God gave to us but its not the be all/end all definition of everything about us. Eventually it doesn't even so much importance really anymore, esp with some who has been in a partnership for many years like myself.

What is really important is the spiritual bond btw the couple and what they contribute to society. Don't you think?

Nope getting married and not having babies or not being able to does not forfeit your right. I wish you luck in your plans to adopt. I hope that it goes smoothly. I know a couple that can not have children and tried to adopt and then the mother changed her mind around the time of the birth.

I'm proud that I'm a Christian. Yes we do get a bad rap due to some nut jobs that call themselves Christians.
PMEmail Poster                
Top
jedibowers 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 05:33 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Knight of the Round Table
Group Icon

Group: Founder
Posts: 163
Joined: 06-Jan-2006
ZodiacHazel

Realm: Fishers, IN

male

Medieval Kingdom
Rank #5
2,147,483,647 Gold!


Clan: AWARE



QUOTE (CelticCoalition @ 08-Jun-2006, 04:21 PM)
Two things. First I'll address the "That's the way it has always been" argument. If we lived our lives by this rule we would not be where we are today. For instance, women were never allowed the vote, blacks were slaves, the mentally ill were tortured, there was no due process of law, anyone considered a witch was burned, being accused of being a communist was enough to get you in trouble with the government, etc. None of these things is considered right today, or even lawful. So, unless we are going to go back to the darkages and live as people lived before, the argument of "It's wrong because it's always been this other way before," doesn't fly.

I say take your ancient talk and your logic and keep it to yourself. If you don't want people telling you who you can and cannot marry, or how you can and cannot raise a child, then keep your own nose out of others business.

First the laws that you pointed out like women could not vote and black slaves in the South are laws made up by men. I'm talking about the law of Nature and that men are to marry women and not men to men or women to women.

Historically, slavery was not wrong. I'm not talking about the slavery that happened in America, because that was wrong! Slavery was used to repay a debt to someone. If someone loaned you money and you could not pay it back, you would become their slave until you worked off your debt. Some cultures had debtor's prisons to have the people work off their debt. In the south, some might have started this way as a way to pay for their crossing to America, but they were never freed from their slavery after the debt was paid.

If you read about the writers of the Constitution and the Declaration of Indpendence, you will realize that they only thought of marriage as between a man and a woman. So they never thought that they would have to specify such a thing. They all believed in Nature's Law. So now it is far left liberal judges that are saying that the Constitution is not specific and over turning laws set by states.
PMEmail Poster                
Top
McKenna 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 05:51 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Servant
**

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 43
Joined: 24-May-2006
ZodiacOak

Realm: Los Angeles, CA

female





Hi Jedi--still not sure where you're comin' from on the gay marriage thing, but feels like its kinda pointless to pursue. It sounds like its just your personal preference since your biological and historical references don't hold up.

If this is the opinion you have on it so I respect that. I just don't see it as affecting our society in a biological or moral sense to really matter. I am not frustrated by people who disagree with me, but rather with the failure to properly convince me.

As for polticians motivated to do something about it legally, that's obviously motivated by getting more votes from a fearful constituency.

Side Note: For about 20 years now I've been having people "wish me luck" and "warning me that I could change my mind about adoption" or "adopted kids can be tricky".

I find that really odd??? Ever since I was a little kid I had a calling in my heart telling me to do it one day. Anyway its sorta off topic

adieu,
m
PMEmail PosterUsers Website My Photo Album               View My Space Profile.
Top
Senara 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 05:56 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Musican/Ruler of the Dells/Warrior
Group Icon

Group: Ireland
Posts: 1,134
Joined: 03-Nov-2005
ZodiacHazel

Realm: Caer Portshire, Mist Hollow

female





QUOTE (jedibowers @ 08-Jun-2006, 05:33 PM)
First the laws that you pointed out like women could not vote and black slaves in the South are laws made up by men. I'm talking about the law of Nature and that men are to marry women and not men to men or women to women.

Historically, slavery was not wrong. I'm not talking about the slavery that happened in America, because that was wrong! Slavery was used to repay a debt to someone. If someone loaned you money and you could not pay it back, you would become their slave until you worked off your debt. Some cultures had debtor's prisons to have the people work off their debt. In the south, some might have started this way as a way to pay for their crossing to America, but they were never freed from their slavery after the debt was paid.

If you read about the writers of the Constitution and the Declaration of Indpendence, you will realize that they only thought of marriage as between a man and a woman. So they never thought that they would have to specify such a thing. They all believed in Nature's Law. So now it is far left liberal judges that are saying that the Constitution is not specific and over turning laws set by states.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't Nature's Law only refer to the reproduction of the species. Marriage, Hand-fastings and other similar rituals are legal and religious acts that have nothing to do with nature and reproduction at all.

It's convenient that men and women make babies...that's nature...any man and any woman can basically complete this task. X +Y = Baby.

Marriage is a way of saying that you are to take another person into your family unit and treat them as one of your own kin and as an equal to yourself in the family structure. It's nothing more than a legal transaction. Has nothing to do with propagation of the species.

The writers of the Constitution also lived in a society where women were burned at the stake for "witchcraft", homosexuality existed and was just not talked about (because ladies and gentlemen never discuss such things), and slaves were taken from one country and deposited here to work for no wage and no way to work towards their freedom. What you reference for others that "slaved" for a boat fair to the US is technically indentured servancy. Once their debt was paid they were released from their indenture and were then able to purchase land, vote, and enjoy the rights of any one else of that time period. African American Slaves had to wait several decades before they were granted the same rights as indentured servants were back in the drafting days of the Constitution. There's quite a bit of difference between the two.


--------------------
Senara-ism : Life is like a theatrical production only you get to be actor, director, and audience all at once. So break a leg, sit back and enjoy the show!

"When the waves are high and the light is dying, raise a glass and think of me..." -Gaelic Storm

Cha chir drn a thoirt an aghaidh pig.
A kiss ought not to be met with a fist.

Thig crioch air an saoghal, ach mairidh gaol is cel.
The world will pass away, but love and music last forever.

"I am a crazy, rabid squirrel! I want my cookies!" Hammy-Over the Hedge
PMEmail Poster               
Top
jedibowers 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 06:20 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Knight of the Round Table
Group Icon

Group: Founder
Posts: 163
Joined: 06-Jan-2006
ZodiacHazel

Realm: Fishers, IN

male

Medieval Kingdom
Rank #5
2,147,483,647 Gold!


Clan: AWARE



Senara, just for clearification, witch burning was about 100 years before the Declaration of Independence. Salem witch trials were around 1664, if my memory serves me right, or somewhere around that time. 1776 was when we declared our Independence.
PMEmail Poster                
Top
Senara 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 06:23 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Musican/Ruler of the Dells/Warrior
Group Icon

Group: Ireland
Posts: 1,134
Joined: 03-Nov-2005
ZodiacHazel

Realm: Caer Portshire, Mist Hollow

female





jedibowers...to further clarify...the practice continued in several areas of the country into the early 1900's...publicly or secretly it still occured not just in Salem.

okay so any one else wanna tell me why two dudes or to gals can't enter into a legal agreement called marriage?
PMEmail Poster               
Top
ShadowDarkFyre 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 06:28 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



ur-Lord of the Domain and Realms
********

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 283
Joined: 09-Mar-2006
ZodiacBirch

Realm: Caer RivenMyst, Fantasia I.D.

male





QUOTE (jedibowers @ 08-Jun-2006, 11:33 PM)
First the laws that you pointed out like women could not vote and black slaves in the South are laws made up by men. I'm talking about the law of Nature and that men are to marry women and not men to men or women to women.

Historically, slavery was not wrong. I'm not talking about the slavery that happened in America, because that was wrong! Slavery was used to repay a debt to someone. If someone loaned you money and you could not pay it back, you would become their slave until you worked off your debt. Some cultures had debtor's prisons to have the people work off their debt. In the south, some might have started this way as a way to pay for their crossing to America, but they were never freed from their slavery after the debt was paid.

If you read about the writers of the Constitution and the Declaration of Indpendence, you will realize that they only thought of marriage as between a man and a woman. So they never thought that they would have to specify such a thing. They all believed in Nature's Law. So now it is far left liberal judges that are saying that the Constitution is not specific and over turning laws set by states.

First off, applauds to Lady Senara. It could nto have been said any better than that. so what follows is just my .02 cents.

One: not that it rules who I am, especially since I wasnae' around when the travesty that was American slavery occured, but take it from a Black man: what Senara says is correct. There is a wide gulf between forced slavery and indentured servitude. You need to straighten out your terminology, and I say that with no malice. Because that "historically-correct slavery" you talk about kept "black and colored people" from being treated like equal human beings in this country for nearly 80 percent of the 20th Century. Indentured servitude doesnae' cause that ripple effect, so to speak.

Secondly, no matter what the writers of the Constitution thought, they penned it to be a living document. And like all living things, it is to grow for the better. Not stagnate or turn the people it was written for against one another. I would rather think that we've had enough of that in this world. Nature's Law is procreation. Believe me, as the Eternal set it, there's plenty of that going on, so donnae' worry.

Where gay marriage is concerned, I'll tell you one and all, I neither agree with nor support homosexuality. I'll make no bones about it. However, one's sexuality is one's own business. Not mine. Not yours. Not the governments. That, like your chosen faith, is between you and whatever deities you serve. And as such, should ever and always remain that way. Anyone who chooses to follow the route that this amendment would put us towards violates the one precious gift the Eternal gave us all when He created Existence: free will. To love violates no law. People need to learn to mind their own business, and leave the private lives of others be: regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, faith or what have you.

What this amendment will leave open if passed is a way for people to discriminate, as was said earlier. This kind of law causes a ripple effect. Consider the "tidal waves" that will come if it is passed.

It's not needed. Simple as that.


--------------------
user posted image

There's magick in believing...

The Domain and Realms
http://www.thedomainandrealms.com
PMEmail PosterUsers Website               
Top
Swanny 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 06:48 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Celtic Guardian
********

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 1,108
Joined: 08-Jun-2003
ZodiacBirch

Realm: Two Rivers, Alaska

male





QUOTE
Anyone who chooses to follow the route that this amendment would put us towards violates the one precious gift the Eternal gave us all when He created Existence: free will.


Thanks for pointing this out. It simply vexes me that those who consider free will to be such an important spiritual concept do their level best to pass laws that limit our ability to make our own decisions on the most important of life's issues.

Swanny


--------------------
user posted image "You can't run with the big dogs if you still pee like a puppy".

Stardancer Historical Freight Dogs, Two Rivers, Alaska.

"Aut pax, aut bellum" (Clan Gunn)
PMEmail Poster               
Top
McKenna 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 06:50 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Servant
**

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 43
Joined: 24-May-2006
ZodiacOak

Realm: Los Angeles, CA

female





QUOTE (ShadowDarkFyre @ 08-Jun-2006, 06:28 PM)
no matter what the writers of the Constitution thought, they penned it to be a living document. And like all living things, it is to grow for the better. Not stagnate or turn the people it was written for against one another.

Very well put. :-) Let us not forget that the writers of the Constitution were Enlightenment Era thinkers. We need to be enlightened ourselves!
PMEmail PosterUsers Website My Photo Album               View My Space Profile.
Top
marti64 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 06:50 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Celtic Guardian
********

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 3,454
Joined: 12-Feb-2006
ZodiacReed

Realm: Worcester, Massachusetts

female





If I were cohabitating with a person of the same sex(which I am not) I would not want anyone telling me that I did not have the right to spend the rest of my life with this person. I know many homosexual couples that are hapily together, a few who have gotten married under the new laws in Massachusetts and California. I think that these individuals are much happier than many of the heterosexual couples that I know...

I think that the people should vote, too, and then the powers that be will see how important this so-called "Democracy" of ours really is!!!

Marti


--------------------
]AN EXCERPT FROM A POEM THAT I WROTE ON 10/11/07

WE CAN'T CHANGE WHAT WE HAVE DONE....
BUT ONLY TAKE A LESSON FROM EACH EXPERIENCE
AND MAKE THE MOST OF EACH MINUTE THAT WE HAVE LEFT
AND TELL OURELVES THAT IT IS OK TO LIVE, LAUGH AND CRY.....
PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE ALL WORK TOGETHER
TO GIVE US WHAT WE CAN AND SHOULD EXPERIENCE
AND WE NEED TO CHERISH ALL OF THE TIME
THAT WE SPEND WITH OURSELVES AND OTHERS MAKING THE MOST OF THE SPECIAL MEMORIES THAT ARE OURS..
AND THE ONES THAT WE HAVE YET TO CREATE WITH THE PEOPLE THAT WE HAVEN'T MET!!!!![/SIZE]
PMEmail Poster               View My Space Profile.
Top
Dogshirt 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 07:42 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline





Lord of the Northern Plains
Group Icon

Group: Founder
Posts: 2,400
Joined: 12-Oct-2003
ZodiacElder

Realm: Washington THE State

male





Here's a cultural angle ya'all might not know about. The Plains Tribes recognized homosexuality as something that happened. The individual (Known as a Berdache')
was not only NOT looked down upon, but HONORED as having both the male spirit and the female spirit. Berdache's were often honored as composers of the best songs, for doing the best bead and quill work and sewing. They were ALSO allowed to marry as they saw fit! And this was NO BIG DEAL until Christians stuck their noses into that which was NONE OF THEIR DAMN BUSINESS! But then I guess that they were just "primatives" that didn't know any better! wink.gif


beer_mug.gif


--------------------
Hoka Hey!
The more Liberals I meet, the more I like my dogs!
PMEmail PosterMy Photo Album               
Top
Dogshirt 
Posted: 08-Jun-2006, 08:41 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline





Lord of the Northern Plains
Group Icon

Group: Founder
Posts: 2,400
Joined: 12-Oct-2003
ZodiacElder

Realm: Washington THE State

male





The christians that is! wink.gif


beer_mug.gif
PMEmail PosterMy Photo Album               
Top
0 User(s) are reading this topic (0 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 








Celtic RadioTM broadcasts through Live365.com and StreamLicensing.com which are officially licensed under SoundExchange, ASCAP, BMI, SESAC and SOCAN.
2014 Celtic Radio Network, Highlander Radio, Celtic Moon, Celtic Dance, Ye O' Celtic Pub and Celt-Rock-Radio.
All rights and trademarks reserved. Read our Privacy Policy.
Celtic Graphics 2014, Cari Buziak


Link to CelticRadio.net!
Link to CelticRadio.net
View Broadcast Status and Statistics!

Best Viewed With IE 8.0 (1680 x 1050 Resolution), Javascript & Cookies Enabled.


[Home] [Top]

Celtic Hearts Gallery | Celtic Mates Dating | My Celtic Friends | Celtic Music Radio | Family Heraldry | Medival Kingdom | Top Celtic Sites | Web Celt Blog | Video Celt