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> Bush Fighting Gay Marriage, Do we need a constitutional amendment?
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McKenna 
Posted: 16-Jun-2006, 06:52 PM
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Well my boyfriend's mother divorced his dad and now she has a female partner. It has only been traumatizing from the standpoint of how (conservative) society views the situation. Otherwise, the family has come to accept it. I can personally attest that he has no homosexual tendencies....BELIEVE me... thumbs_up.gif

I think there are awful and traumatizing parents for plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with sexual orientation...are we going to pass all kinds of laws to prevent people who are alcoholics from marrying, for example. Or the whole example you give about how the subject of the study, the son, didn't have a male figure with which to indentify and was messed up as a result. If that's really how it went down it is indeed a shame. my female cousins have a lot of emotional problems because their dad left their mom for another woman. But there is no law preventing my Aunt from raising them on her own. Perhaps she's not "as good" as "two parents", but she did a damn good job from what I can see.

Life comes with a lot of crummy realities...is this a reason to bring the law in to interfere? And some people are raised by crappy parents and turn out great or vice versa. Your argument does not hold enough power for me to be convinced.

Again, if I had to choose btw 2 hetero parents that beat each other up, shot drugs and lived in a trailer park or two rich lesbians that would out me through the best schools and art and music lessons, I wouldn't think twice about who I'd pick! biggrin.gif

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SCShamrock 
Posted: 16-Jun-2006, 07:15 PM
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McKenna,

I appreciate your sentiment, but your post is exactly what I was hoping to avoid. Since the subject does revolve around gay marriage, and then the thought of child-rearing was introduced by Mike, I am interested in the philosophy of others concerning same-sex couple's ability to raise well rounded children, not whether gay marriage should be banned because of it. The question is, do competent heterosexual couples stand a better chance of raising children without unnecessary social and emotional complications than do homosexual couples. By the way, the lesbian couple that lives next door to me do not have children they raise, but one of them is a mother and grandmother...her youngest child about age 22. I think she divorce her husband 7 years ago, so her sexual identity was probably well decided before she learned her mother was gay. I don't think that's a good example from which to draw any conclusion because I think the scenario should be the couple that raises the child from infancy or toddler age. JMO.


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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 19-Jun-2006, 03:35 PM
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Since it looks like we are on another topic, I'll chime in again. Perhaps this shoudl be moved to a different thread...but I'll just answer here.

First of all there are a TON of support groups for those "coming out of heterosexuality". It just kinda depends on what exactly you are talking about. There are support groups for homosexuals to deal with living in a heterosexual world. They also hep support homosexuals deal with the issues that come with coming out to their heterosexual families.

If you are talking about support groups in general for kids in heterosexual families, there are support groups for kids from broken homes, abusive homes, groups for those raped or molested by their parents, from families with drug or alcohol problems...etc.

I also don't quite understand what you mean by well rounded child rearing. What exactly defines well rounded? If part of the defintion of well rounded means "has a male father and female mother raising them" then there really isn't a way to show that this is unnecessary.

However, I believe there is enough evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that the traditional model of the male and female parents doesn't fit in today's world. There are single parent families, families where the child has two, three, or even four different sets of parents as they grow up. There are children that are raised by aunts, uncles, or grandparents. Do these children have problems? Yes. Do they always grow up well adjusted? No. But if heterosexual couples who stay together their whole lives do not have a %100 performance rating of raising well adjusted, or well rounded kids, then we can't expect homosexuals to have %100 rating.

There are many things that parents can do that will create problems for their children as the grow up. Interracial couples, those with poor economic standing, children of cops, children of therapists, children with red hair, children whose parents don't buy them the coolest clothes...all these kids can have problems from their peers and even adults as they grow up.

There is also the question of what is unnecessary social and emmotional complications. Parents get divorced, move their children from state to state constantly, and all this isn't legislated by law. The fact is: children have very little control over their lives or who their parents are.

I believe that a homosexual couple will have just as good a chance of raising a well adjusted child than any of these other non-traditional model family structures.


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Sonee 
Posted: 20-Jun-2006, 09:45 AM
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Again I have to agree with CC. There are as many screwed up kids coming from heterosexual couples as there are from homosexual ones. More, in fact because gays aren't allowed to raise children in proliferation as straights are.

I do believe that children need a strong male figure and a strong female figure in their lives to be 'well-rounded', but I don't think that parents are the only ones who can provide this. Aunts, uncles, grandparents, close friends, they all count toward that figure. A person doesn't have to actually LIVE with a child to be an influence on them. I do think that perhaps children of homosexual couples have a slight disadvantage as there aren't that many heterosexual people who are close friends with gay couples and many of those couples don't have the family support they need from their own parents and siblings. This leaves the child with primarily homosexual role models and very litte to no heterosexual ones and I think that could affect the way the child looks at him/herself and their relationship to the world in general.

I think all children need exposure to the different 'roles' of society because, whether you like it or not, or agree with it or not, they're all out there and they will remain out there no matter how many laws you make. And, unless you plan on locking your children up in a cage all their lives they ARE going to come into contact with portions of these different 'roles' and need to know how to react and INTERact with them without prejudiced ignorance.



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Celtic cat 
Posted: 22-Jun-2006, 01:49 PM
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I really thought that I posted already on this topic but guess not. Anyhow, my mother and her "partner" have been together since I was three. I am grateful for the switch in some ways. I am actually closer to my dad because of the distance. We talked alot over the phone. I know my dad better and have been given male advice my entire life from him. My mother on the other hand is neither very feminine nor masculine. She is normal but doesn't really give out good fatherly advice bc she is a chick and can't really give good womanly advice because she has this cloud over her eyes that says all guys are bad. My mother's "partner" on the other hand taught me all the things women know. I'm not being sexist but she taught me how to clean, very well, fold laundry, paint my nails, and later put on make-up. She always did my hair and picked out my school clothes when I was little. My mom played catch with me, took me fishing, and taught me how to change a tire. So you see, I was given a mother figure in "the other mother" and a fatherly figure in my mother and my dad is basically just my best friend. I love them all. But point being...when I'm not happy w/ the way I was raised it has nothing to do w/ sexes. I just don't ,and didn't, like the way they as adults handle situations. They never really agree on much, and they fought alot when I was growing up. But that seems irrelevant to me because plenty of strait parents fight. So as a bonifide example feel free to debate me.


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stoirmeil 
Posted: 22-Jun-2006, 01:56 PM
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Thanks for this, Celtic Cat. Your post makes a necessary point: when you talk about the people who raised you, you are talking neither about their genders nor their sexual preferences. You are talking about complicated, whole individuals, with strengths and weaknesses, and about your love for them and theirs for you. You are people in the world for each other.

We fail to thrive, we are less than we could have been and we die without that. It is far less important whom it came from, if it's good, than just having it. Somebody must have done something right, because it seems you came out with a lot of concern and ethical sense and compassion.
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Celtic cat 
Posted: 23-Jun-2006, 02:07 PM
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Thank you, my "family" is the group that taught me to be open minded. Those other attributes from my family have been nurtured by my boyfriend as well.
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maisky 
Posted: 23-Jun-2006, 10:22 PM
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How many people see this as a smoke screen? It diverts our attention from erosion of our civil liberties?


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maisky 
Posted: 24-Jun-2006, 05:49 AM
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QUOTE (Celtic cat @ 23-Jun-2006, 01:07 PM)
Thank you, my "family" is the group that taught me to be open minded. Those other attributes from my family have been nurtured by my boyfriend as well.

Celtic Cat, you are a breath of fresh air in this forum.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 28-Jun-2006, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (maisky @ 23-Jun-2006, 10:22 PM)
How many people see this as a smoke screen? It diverts our attention from erosion of our civil liberties?

Oh, yeah, the fact that it's a bone of contention at this particular time isn't fooling anyone. But it's still an issue in its own right, and apparently one that's yet to be resolved to a manageable consensus.
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McKenna 
Posted: 28-Jun-2006, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE (maisky @ 23-Jun-2006, 10:22 PM)
How many people see this as a smoke screen? It diverts our attention from erosion of our civil liberties?

absolutely so true Maisky--you reminded me to not waste any more time on this topic.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 07-Aug-2006, 12:42 PM
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For any who are still interested in this debate -- I posted a link to this week's
"Speaking of Faith" radio program, which ran a thought-provoking, pro and con theological discussion this week on this topic, whichever side you stand on -- in the "Speaking of Faith" thread in the Religion and Philosophy forum.
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Emmet 
Posted: 07-Aug-2006, 03:45 PM
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QUOTE
Do we need a ban on gay marriage added to the constitution?


Hell no.

QUOTE
Should it be up to the States to decide?


Hell no. Remember what a swell job the "States Rights" folks did with racial segregation?

QUOTE
Is this the right time to even be bringing this issue up with the war continuing, homeless people on the streets, and all the other problems this country is facing?


For Republicans apparently so; with midterm elections fast approaching, they sure as hell can't run on their record of success, so they need scapegoats they can publicly flay to rally the less evolved to their cause. As a matter of fact, things are so bad, they feel the need for two scapegoats; gays and illegal immigrants.

QUOTE
Should gay people be allowed to get married? Why or why not?


That would depend upon what kind of marriage we're talking about; the ecclesiastical sacrament, or the civil contractual relationship. Pursuant to the 1st Amendment; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (italics mine). Historically, in this country religions have been accorded great leeway in being as bigoted and backward as they want to be, so it's up to them to determine to whom they extend or withhold the sacrament of marriage. Unless I'm a member of their sect, it's really none of my business.

The flip side of that coin; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion", suggests that the government has no right to legislate morality based upon the Bible, and there is no valid psychosocial research to suggest a compelling State interest in denying the de jure benefits of civil marriage to gays and lesbians (actually the inverse is true; there is considerable research to suggest just such a compelling State interest in promoting stable long-term nurturing relationships among adults regardless of sexual preference). Ipso facto, pursuant to the 14th Amendment gays and lesbians should be accorded equal protection under the law, and allowed all of the benefits which accrue to heterosexual married couples, not merely some half-baked "separate but equal" civil union.



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Dogshirt 
Posted: 07-Aug-2006, 11:38 PM
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And this thing about "Demeaning or Diminishing" marriage if gays are allowed to marry is crap! My marriage is strong and secure enough that nothing will change if two guys (or gals) are allowed to marry each other. If others think it will, then perhaps they should re-examine their relationship.

$0.02


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John Clements 
Posted: 08-Aug-2006, 08:59 AM
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I think all marriages should be gay.


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