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Patch 
Posted: 26-Apr-2010, 11:33 AM
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Chicago's murder count has hit 113 and is increasing daily. (The death toll in Afghanistan is 138) The summer months when violent crime traditionally peaks are not yet here so there may be a record broken this year. There are cameras everywhere covering the activity of all on the streets and in public areas. The city has extremely restrictive fire arms laws. Whatever could be wrong?! State officials have called for "gunshot microphones" to listen to shots in real time. If camera's do not work, I fail to see how this will help. Some have called for the National Guard though the mayor rejects that idea.

When the criminal element finds a safe haven where the public is unarmed they gravitate to it.

FBI crime stats show that in every state where citizens are guaranteed the right to personal defense with firearms, crime goes down.

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Patch    
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Patch 
Posted: 28-Apr-2010, 01:32 PM
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USA Today Quick Question Poll; USATODAY.Com - Quick Question

97% believe that the second amendment is a Constitutionally guaranteed right for individuals

2% believe it is not

1% unsure.

6 million 6 hundred thousand plus voted.

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Patch    


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stoirmeil 
Posted: 28-Apr-2010, 02:05 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 28-Apr-2010, 02:32 PM)
USA Today Quick Question Poll;  USATODAY.Com - Quick Question

97% believe that the second amendment is a Constitutionally guaranteed right for individuals

2% believe it is not

1% unsure.

6 million 6 hundred thousand plus voted.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

The following comment in answer to this polling result, which was posted on the MT Pundit (Montana):


http://mtpundit.com/2009/02/15/usa-today-q...t-to-bear-arms/

2nd Amendment poll on USA Today Says:
April 13th, 2010 at 9:52 am
[…] To the OP" Why when I cut and paste this into my browser does it take me to this garbage. I don’t suggest anybody else click this link. USA Today Quick Question: Does the Second Amendment give individuals the right to bear arms?


The poll also was posted in the Daily Paul (a Ron Paul vanity site), and on the Hotrodders Bulletin Board, and on digg, the governmentmess blogspot, a board called the Tree of Liberty, TCUnation (a social network for conservatives) . . .

You get the idea. At no point did I see an official USA Today site masthead with this very simple little popup poll on it. Methinks you may be fishing for trout but you're dragging up three-eyed trash fish.
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Patch 
Posted: 28-Apr-2010, 03:48 PM
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For those who are interested:

When I voted a few months ago the count was just over 120K. It was 6,637,395 when I last checked. The abbreviated USA Today logo appears in my online USA Today news service and voting is on going.

I recommend that EVERYONE check out the site and vote. You can also to to USA Today and verify the poll.

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Patch    
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wdorholt 
Posted: 29-Apr-2010, 12:22 AM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 26-Apr-2010, 11:33 AM)

FBI crime stats show that in every state where citizens are guaranteed the right to personal defense with firearms, crime goes down.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

I thought folks might be interested in this study done by the Harvard School of Public Health. Unfortunately, the full study isn't available for free on line.

Boston, MA -- Firearms are used to kill two out of every three homicide victims in America. In the first nationally representative study to examine the relationship between survey measures of household firearm ownership and state level rates of homicide, researchers at the Harvard Injury Control Research Center found that homicide rates among children, and among women and men of all ages, are higher in states where more households have guns. The study appears in the February 2007 issue of Social Science and Medicine. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.socscimed.2006.09.024

[Matthew Miller], Assistant Professor of Health Policy and Injury Prevention at Harvard School of Public Health, and his colleagues [David Hemenway] and [Deborah Azrael], used survey data from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention’s 2001 Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System, the world’s largest telephone survey with over 200,000 respondents nationwide. Respondents in all 50 states were asked whether any firearms were kept in or around their home. The survey found that approximately one in three American households reported firearm ownership.
Matthew Miller, Assistant Professor of Health Policy and Injury Prevention at Harvard School of Public Health, and his colleagues David Hemenway and Deborah Azrael, used survey data from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention’s 2001 Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System, the world’s largest telephone survey with over 200,000 respondents nationwide. Respondents in all 50 states were asked whether any firearms were kept in or around their home. The survey found that approximately one in three American households reported firearm ownership.

Analyses that controlled for several measures of resource deprivation, urbanization, aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, and alcohol consumption found that states with higher rates of household firearm ownership had significantly higher homicide victimization rates for children, and for women and men. In these analyses, states within the highest quartile of firearm prevalence had firearm homicide rates 114% higher than states within the lowest quartile of firearm prevalence. Overall homicide rates were 60% higher. The association between firearm prevalence and homicide was driven by gun-related homicide rates; non-gun-related homicide rates were not significantly associated with rates of firearm ownership.

These results suggest that it is easier for potential homicide perpetrators to obtain a gun in states where guns are more prevalent. “Our findings suggest that in the United States, household firearms may be an important source of guns used to kill children, women and men, both on the street and in their homes,” said Miller.

This study was supported by the Joyce Foundation.

Miller M., Hemenway D., Azrael D. "State-level homicide victimization rates in the US in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership 2001-2003”
Soc Sci Med. 2007 Feb;64(3):656-64. Epub 2006 Oct 27


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Patch 
Posted: 29-Apr-2010, 02:20 AM
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[QUOTE=wdorholt,29-Apr-2010, 01:22 AM] [QUOTE=Patch,26-Apr-2010, 11:33 AM]
FBI crime stats show that in every state where citizens are guaranteed the right to personal defense with firearms, crime goes down.

Slàinte,    

Patch    [/QUOTE]
I thought folks might be interested in this study done by the Harvard School of Public Health. Unfortunately, the full study isn't available for free on line.

The 2009 FBI crime statistics show that firearms crime has dropped considerably and has been falling for some time. Also it indicates that in states that offer legal protection to those who must use a firearm in defense of themselves or others have even lower rates of firearms "crime". Using a firearm for protection is not a crime. Also, the number of children killed in the home by firearms either accidentally or intentionally is miniscule. As I recall from an old study, about the same time of the one you cite, More children are killed in the home with with pointed/sharp instruments or blunt" objects. That is not to imply that even death one is acceptable.

With firearms sales just now beginning to level off it is estimated by the BATF that individuals owning firearms have increased substantially in the last 18 months. Since they can only estimate the number of private sales and many people would not admit in a poll to anything related to firearms the true numbers will never be known.

In summary, the Govt agency (FBI) which keeps crime statistics indicated that firearms ownership reduces, not increases crime. They do it by compiling actual numbers, not with surveys.

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Patch    
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 29-Apr-2010, 11:27 AM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 28-Apr-2010, 04:48 PM)
You can also to to USA Today and verify the poll.

Does it not occur to you that if a large selection of pro-gun websites in the websphere gank the little clicker square and embed it into their own pages, it might massively skew the results?

It is no longer reaching the intended USA today audience in the intended proportions. It's just a close cousin of online ballot stuffing. Not recognizing this is either very naive or very disingenuous.
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Patch 
Posted: 29-Apr-2010, 12:39 PM
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For those who are interested.

6,637,395!!!!

Just because someone disagrees does not make it counterfit!!!
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Antwn 
Posted: 30-Apr-2010, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 29-Apr-2010, 12:39 PM)
For those who are interested.

6,637,395!!!!

Just because someone disagrees does not make it counterfit!!!

If you create a poll asking "do you think fishing is a worthwhile activity" and 90% of your respondents are fishermen, your results are going to reflect their bias, and if you're going to represent that response as a cross section of the populace then you'd be misleading. I think that's Stoirmeil's point put simply. Its not a question of agreement.


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Patch 
Posted: 30-Apr-2010, 08:59 PM
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It was not presented as a poll with a controlled demographic. It did appear in USA today with a link I am told about 3 and a half months ago. There was no attempt to control who voted. The last one was sent to me by a woman whom I know to be a long time democrat and obama supporter. It is as good as a university poll and maybe better. Those opposed are able to vote here too. In the University polls they rarely reach conservatives thus they are are not as accurate.



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wdorholt 
Posted: 01-May-2010, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 29-Apr-2010, 02:20 AM)
The 2009 FBI crime statistics show that firearms crime has dropped considerably and has been falling for some time.  Also it indicates that in states that offer legal protection to those who must use a firearm in defense of themselves or others have even lower rates of firearms "crime". 

Slàinte,    

Patch    

There was an article in the Christian Science Monitor of December 23, 2009 entitled:

"More guns equal more crime? Not in 2009, FBI crime report shows."

This would tend to agree with some of what you said. However, it goes on to say:

...The debate over whether guns spur or deter crime has been under way for decades. So far, research has come out with, in essence, a net-zero correlation between gun sales and crime rates. More likely factors for the crime rate decline have to do with Americans hunkering down, spending less time out on the town with cash in their pockets and more time at home with the porch lights on, experts say. So-called "smart policing" that focuses specifically on repeat offenders and troubled areas could also be playing a role, as could extended unemployment benefits that staved off desperation.

“We can absolutely draw a fact-based conclusion about [whether there’s a correlation between declining crime rates and increasing gun ownership], and the answer is no,” says David Kennedy, director of the Center for Crime Prevention and Control in New York. “There are very consistent findings that the acquisition and obtaining of carry permits by ordinary law-abiding people has either no or very little impact on the crime rate.”

He finds more evidence in the FBI’s new report, which shows crimes declining not only across a variety of violent and nonviolent crime classifications, but also in both gun-resistant and gun-friendly corners of the country.

“When you’re seeing declines [in violent crime] both in cities like Atlanta, which is in a relatively gun-friendly state, and in places like New York City, where it is essentially impossible for ordinary folks to acquire and carry especially handguns, then it’s not the guns that are driving the [statistics],” Mr. Kennedy says.

I am not bringing this up because I am opposed to people owning guns. I happen to think that the arguments around this issue are often devoid of fact, overly emotional, and lead to spurious conclusions. You are NOT safer if you own a gun. If you want to own a gun fine, but you increase the odds of your family being hurt by one. If you can control for that, and many people do, fine again.
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Patch 
Posted: 01-May-2010, 07:15 AM
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"Smart policing" is having no effect in Chicago. Also, NY city and state have about the same number of permits per capita as states with shall issue carry laws. In NY you must know someone to get one though.

In states where we have worked to gain favorable carry laws and castle doctrine laws, crime quickly drops dramaticly and it can not be attributed to people staying home. We find by following the FBI stats. that the crime moves to areas with restrictive firearms laws where the criminal feels safer.

FBI stats also indicate that the presence of a firearm in the home has less to do with the possibility of someone getting hurt than the lack of firearms training for those living in the home.

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Patch    



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Patch 
Posted: 03-May-2010, 07:13 PM
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I just received the Gander Mountain mothers day firearms sale bulletin. Though it is not the gift for all mothers, many would appreciate such a gift!

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Patch    
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 03-May-2010, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 30-Apr-2010, 09:59 PM)
In the University polls they rarely reach conservatives thus they are are not as accurate.

Goodness, why not? Something about universities that repels conservatives? happy.gif
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Patch 
Posted: 03-May-2010, 07:35 PM
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I am educated but no University has ever sent me a poll to complete about anything. I suspect "because" I am a conservative.
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