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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 04-Jun-2009, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 04-Jun-2009, 08:09 PM)


Or never happened at all, not prevented, simply did not happen. Prevention is a piss poor excuse for anything. YOU are responsible for your safety! On the job, at home, at ALL times. NO one else is looking out for you, and if they say they are, DUCK, COVER, and put your hand on your wallet!


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We who live here in Florida with the right to have a gun, live very happly. How dare anyone try to take that right away.


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Patch 
Posted: 04-Jun-2009, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 04-Jun-2009, 09:09 PM)


Or never happened at all, not prevented, simply did not happen. Prevention is a piss poor excuse for anything. YOU are responsible for your safety! On the job, at home, at ALL times. NO one else is looking out for you, and if they say they are, DUCK, COVER, and put your hand on your wallet!


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You hit that nail on the head. There are people who do not want to take the life of another. However, if they feel that way, they need to consider that some day they may forfeit their own life to save a criminal.

Police response times run from 15 min to much longer. Even 5 min is a long time to "fight for your life" while waiting for the police. As a female, that is probably at least 4 min too long.

My neighbor had two firearms and no ammunition. After a B&E of an occupied residence while the people were in bed she got scared. I gave her a box of 22 LR hollow-points, and 4 - 12 G high base #2 shotgun cartridges. Both fire arms are loaded, she has a book describing the castle docterine, and she got to practice with both firearms. Any one who breaks into her home now is going to absorb the contents of both barrels from a beautiful old Fox double.

In my opinion, we each have two choices. We can become a victim or we can choose to live! It is a "no brainer" as I see it!

Slàinte,    

Patch    
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 04-Jun-2009, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 04-Jun-2009, 08:44 PM)
QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 04-Jun-2009, 09:09 PM)


Or never happened at all, not prevented, simply did not happen. Prevention is a piss poor excuse for anything. YOU are responsible for your safety! On the job, at home, at ALL times. NO one else is looking out for you, and if they say they are, DUCK, COVER, and put your hand on your wallet!


beer_mug.gif

You hit that nail on the head. There are people who do not want to take the life of another. However, if they feel that way, they need to consider that some day they may forfeit their own life to save a criminal.

Police response times run from 15 min to much longer. Even 5 min is a long time to "fight for your life" while waiting for the police. As a female, that is probably at least 4 min too long.

My neighbor hat two firearms and no ammunition. After a B&E of an occupied residence while the people were in bed she got scared. I gave her a box of 22 LR hollow-points, and 4 - 12 G high base #2 shotgun cartridges. Both fire arms are loaded, she has a book describing the castle docterine, and she got to practice with both firearms. Any one who breaks into her home now is going to absorb the contents of both barrels from a beautiful old Fox double.

In my opinion, we each have two choices. We can become a victim or we can choose to live! It is a "no brainer" as I see it!

Slàinte,    

Patch    

thumbs_up.gif thumbs_up.gif thumbs_up.gif thumbs_up.gif biggrin.gif This is all I have to say.
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 04-Jun-2009, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE
Police response times run from 15 min to much longer. Even 5 min is a long time to "fight for your life" while waiting for the police. As a female, that is probably at least 4 min too long.


Last summer my neighbor's house caught on fire. I was the 2nd person to call it in. It STILL took over an hour 20 minutes before ANYTHING with a light on it, cop OR fire department showed up! I and the other neighbors were directing traffic, administering first aid and looking for the lost dog all that time with NO help from the authorities.
I'll look out for me and mine and they can cut the budget at the sherriff's office. Obviously they AND the fire department as useful as a belt for snakes!
What a joke!


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stoirmeil 
Posted: 05-Jun-2009, 10:41 AM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 04-Jun-2009, 08:09 PM)


Or never happened at all, not prevented, simply did not happen. Prevention is a piss poor excuse for anything. YOU are responsible for your safety! On the job, at home, at ALL times. NO one else is looking out for you, and if they say they are, DUCK, COVER, and put your hand on your wallet!


beer_mug.gif

Wallet, yes. Of course. But the only ones you can hurt by overreacting with your wallet are yourself and your dependents.

As far as the other thing -- you're just corroberating what I already said. Prevention can't be categorically proved, so there are people who think it has no application at all. And that's -- well, a lot of words come to mind. Let's say not too well informed. Don't get your dogs immunizations until at least one of them comes down sick, for example. And if I get the shots, who is to say that the dog didn't get sick because there was no rabies around anyway?
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Patch 
Posted: 05-Jun-2009, 07:39 PM
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I beg to differ with you. I use "my wallet" to make points that are important to me. It has no effect on my family/dependents. I, through boycotts and with holding financial support, have made major changes in my community.

I do not trust my financial well being to very many people.

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Patch    
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 05-Jun-2009, 07:51 PM
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Wallet, yes. Of course. But the only ones you can hurt by overreacting with your wallet are yourself and your dependents.

As far as the other thing -- you're just corroberating what I already said. Prevention can't be categorically proved, so there are people who think it has no application at all. And that's -- well, a lot of words come to mind. Let's say not too well informed. Don't get your dogs immunizations until at least one of them comes down sick, for example. And if I get the shots, who is to say that the dog didn't get sick because there was no rabies around anyway?



May or may not apply. I haven't had a flu shot for over 35 years. I haven't had the flu in over, you guessed it, 35 years! Prevention is NOT an applicable thing. It just doesn't work out on paper OR in real life.
WHY haven't I had the flu? Perhaps because I work outside, perhaps because the flu doesn't exist. My wife gets the flu. I kiss her every night. But I don't get the flu! Simple, the flu doesn't exist!
The same is true of what you perceive as a problem with guns. I don't have this issue, it doesn't exist! If gangbangers want to kill them selves off, fine. The human animal is a dime a dozen, well, thanks to Obama they are 3.75 cents a dozen. BUT they are VERY expendable. So I do not get excited if they try to kill each other off. We can get along without ANY of them.
If this sounds harsh..... well, I like my dogs more than I like most people. Most of them just suck up air that I, my dogs and my friends need. They are a waste of resources!


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Antwn 
Posted: 06-Jun-2009, 12:22 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 04-Jun-2009, 08:09 PM)
Or never happened at all, not prevented, simply did not happen. Prevention is a piss poor excuse for anything. YOU are responsible for your safety! On the job, at home, at ALL times. NO one else is looking out for you, and if they say they are, DUCK, COVER, and put your hand on your wallet!


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So how does the possession of a gun prevent something which hasn't happened?


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Patch 
Posted: 06-Jun-2009, 12:45 PM
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The fact that a person may be armed causes a criminal to consider the hazards involved when committing a crime. In states that allow concealed carry, violent crime goes down. Countries and states that restrict firearms ownership experience dramatic increases in violent crime. It is all a matter of record for any who WANT to know.

The person robbing a bank or service station in my state must consider that one or more others in the establishment may be armed including the employees. As long as he/she is not waving a weapon around no one will interfere. However, if he endangers anyone, the legally armed citizen is likely to make him very DEAD and very quickly too! Those who will commit crimes and endanger others do not have the same rights the rest of us do.

Those who have not dealt with violent crime can really not speak on the subject with any authority. In reading the posts in this topic, it is very easy to determine those who have not had that experience.

Slàinte,    

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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 06-Jun-2009, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 06-Jun-2009, 01:22 PM)
So how does the possession of a gun prevent something which hasn't happened?

The individual possession of a firearm is not generally a preventive action, instead it is preparatory in nature. Societal attitudes on the possession of firearms do have an effect on the actions of those people who tend toward lawless behavior. Read John Lott's "More Guns, Less Crime" for a statical analysis.

Example: The logic for carrying a firearm for self defense is the same logic used for having a spare tire, tire-iron, and jack in your car. Most folks don't plan on having a flat tire and their preference would be to call for road service and have a mechanic change the tire if they did have a flat. But if you find yourself in a location where there isn't any help available, or they aren't going to arrive in a timely manner, then you are going to need that spare and tools to get yourself out of the situation you find yourself in.


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Patch 
Posted: 06-Jun-2009, 07:24 PM
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Since death is a major occupational hazard of the criminal, states with laws allowing for self defense, usually have a much lower crime rate.

I have knowledge of a situation where a person in legal possession of a firearm probably saved one or more lives. 5 people were shot and the legal firearm was used to put the perp. on the floor, turning gray and destined to never commit that act again. This took place in a crowded area with no collateral injuries. It was ruled by a coroners inquest to be a justifiable homicide.

I prefer those intent on committing a crime to be worried about who may be armed.

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Patch    



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Antwn 
Posted: 07-Jun-2009, 12:35 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 06-Jun-2009, 12:45 PM)
The fact that a person may be armed causes a criminal to consider the hazards involved when committing a crime. In states that allow concealed carry, violent crime goes down. Countries and states that restrict firearms ownership experience dramatic increases in violent crime. It is all a matter of record for any who WANT to know.

The person robbing a bank or service station in my state must consider that one or more others in the establishment may be armed including the employees. As long as he/she is not waving a weapon around no one will interfere. However, if he endangers anyone, the legally armed citizen is likely to make him very DEAD and very quickly too! Those who will commit crimes and endanger others do not have the same rights the rest of us do.

Those who have not dealt with violent crime can really not speak on the subject with any authority. In reading the posts in this topic, it is very easy to determine those who have not had that experience.

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Patch    

Completely speculative. For prevention to be ascertained, there must be a provable cause effect correlation, and of course correlation is not causation nor in this case can prevention be said to have been established. Your evidence relies on maybes and mights, and the psychic foreknowlege of a potential criminal as to whether guns are present or not. I think Stoirmeil's original point, summarily ignored prior to a digressive rant about an unrelated point, stated as much.
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Patch 
Posted: 07-Jun-2009, 12:51 PM
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You are the one who is speculating. I know from watching crime rates drop with concealed cary as states enact it that I am right. You can produce no numbers to counter that as they do not exist!

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Antwn 
Posted: 07-Jun-2009, 12:53 PM
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QUOTE (MacEoghainn @ 06-Jun-2009, 06:49 PM)
The individual possession of a firearm is not generally a preventive action, instead it is preparatory in nature. Societal attitudes on the possession of firearms do have an effect on the actions of those people who tend toward lawless behavior. Read John Lott's "More Guns, Less Crime" for a statical analysis.

Example: The logic for carrying a firearm for self defense is the same logic used for having a spare tire, tire-iron, and jack in your car. Most folks don't plan on having a flat tire and their preference would be to call for road service and have a mechanic change the tire if they did have a flat. But if you find yourself in a location where there isn't any help available, or they aren't going to arrive in a timely manner, then you are going to need that spare and tools to get yourself out of the situation you find yourself in.

On the surface this sounds logical, but mechanical obsolescence is inevitable whereas criminal victimization is not. A similar pseudo logic is applied to idea that computer models prove that catastrophic events due to global warming are inevitable and we should therefore take strong measures to prevent such catastrophe. No future event is proven, it hasn't happened yet. You can take whatever preparatory measures you wish of course, but you cannot prevent a hypothetical event, so what you're preparing for is a mere idea in your mind. Whenever you attempt to prevent something you must make some evaluation of the likelihood of occurance or waste your time. That likelihood will vary statistically of course, but to correlate positively that a non-event is being prevented by your ownership of a gun is unprovable. It will always remain conjectural.
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RedWeasel 
Posted: 07-Jun-2009, 01:09 PM
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That likelihood will vary statistically of course, but to correlate positively that a non-event is being prevented by your ownership of a gun is unprovable. It will always remain conjectural.


Perhaps this so, BUT the opposite is a proven.
When governments legislate guns out of the hands of the private citizen, crime has ALWAYS been shown to rise dramatically!

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