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Patch 
Posted: 20-Mar-2009, 09:00 AM
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Democracy is "one person, One vote on every issue." No more, no less. Democracy is unworkable as citizens would do nothing but vote continually on every issue that comes up. Socialism is a situation where government determines what best serves all the people and then institutes and pays for these problems. Socialism takes the biggest hit in these times when revenue dries up. So then does the ability to fund those programs. Thus the easy option is to flood the economy with $. This is being done now world wide and the outcome will be catastrophic. Firearms control will soon be the least of the problems. Sadly it is easy to determine where the armed criminals will go to practice their trade.

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oldraven 
Posted: 20-Mar-2009, 11:17 AM
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QUOTE (Taliesin @ 19-Mar-2009, 01:51 PM)
Some points from my post in bullet form, since you apparently didn't read it:
  • My point was simply that all of the police officers I know carry their weapons wherever they go, so it's not unreasonable to assume that if "wherever they go" happened to include Canada, they would take their gun with them.
I did NOT say that they should be allowed to do whatever they wanted. Neither did I say that their ignorance of the law would be used as a defense in court. This is explained a little further in my post.
  • In the US, Canadian police can bring their sidearms with them, apparently. It wouldn't be all that weird if they would assume the same courtesy held for US police in Canada.
This was merely to support the above point, but I feel it's important, in terms of understanding where others are coming from. Not as a legal defense, or anything else of that nature.
  • I could see them just assuming that they would be permitted to carry their sidearm with them into Canada.
Now, this is the preamble to the point I KNOW you missed in my post:
  • They would be wrong, of course, and they would have to decide what to do with their firearm while in Canada, as I would assume any police officer would have enough respect for the law to either leave his gun in the US, or not go to Canada.
Ok? I'm not saying anything about a legal defense. If they were found with a gun, and weren't supposed to have it in Canada, they ought to be prosecuted. If they wanted to flaunt a law they disagreed with, then the stiffest penalties for such apply to them. It was implicit in my post, but I suppose I didn't state it clearly enough.

What would happen if they shot someone? Well, I suppose your legal system covers that, I don't know why you bring it up. I'm not excusing their legal culpability for having a firearm illegally.

QUOTE (oldraven)
I would have confiscated it or simply denied him entry. It's a pretty simply concept,


It IS simple. That's what happened, and I agree with it. If Canada does not extend the courtesy to US LE Officers that the US does for Canadians, then he ought to be stopped at the border, and denied entry. (If confiscation included the return of the firearm on exit, then I'd be ok with that, but otherwise, I'd think the US LE Officer should provide for his own in-US gun storage while he's away.

My point was not to discuss the legal implications of illegally possessing a firearm, which are quite simple. My point was merely to address the question of Camac's which is "What the hell was he doing trying to bring a gun into Canada." I understand why. It does not legally excuse him. I was just explaining the situation for officers living in the US, since some here seem to be oblivious to life in the US.

I did read it, and it did come off as making excuses for why an officer would make such a glaring mistake. If you weren't making excuses for the action, that's the only place a misunderstanding existed. But it still sounds like you're trying to give me a reason for why a police man would take his sidearm to Canada, as though it was an honest mistake. I was just saying that not knowing the law is never an excuse, and not bothering to find out, especially as one bound to uphold the law itself, is even more inexcusable.

BTW, the fascination is about more than protecting yourself. One hour scanning US television will make this very clear. It's a part of your popular culture, which has nothing to do with the criminal element on the street. Just as hockey is celebrated in Canadian media, guns are celebrated by the same in the US. You rarely see an American hero in a movie or television show that doesn't have a gun in his/her hand. That's the fascination I think Camac was getting at. You may not see it that way, but from the outside looking in it is very clear that your society is indoctrinated by the use of guns in everyday life.


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Taliesin 
Posted: 20-Mar-2009, 12:01 PM
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Olraven, I'm asking you to have some empathy to understand where someone was coming from. You apparently have no desire to do that, but would prefer everyone else have it for Canadians. That is unreasonable.

Any misunderstanding would have been cleared up when I said "They would be wrong, of course". Which is how I know you did not read my post.

All I ask is what people are demanding of me, which is that I understand where they're coming from.

As for your perception of my culture, I could care less. I have little respect for popular media unless it makes me laugh. (I've never seen the protagonists of The Big Bang Theory with a gun in their hands, but admittedly, I've not seen every episode.) The people I know are interested in defending their families, because criminals are in existence, and many of them do have guns. I read the news stories.

But again, I am perhaps asking too much that you understand the point of view of another, as you ask of everyone else. Again, please note I said "They would be wrong, of course." Also please note that I've said many times that if someone is guilty of violating the law, they should expect to have penalties applied to them.

If there's a misunderstanding, it's because you only read what you choose to in my posts.


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Camac
Posted: 20-Mar-2009, 12:20 PM
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Taliesin;

It is a conflict of cultures. We in Canada see things alot differently mainly because we are not raised in a culture that extols guns. I live on the outskirts of the Safest City in North America. population 3 1/2 million, and when the murder rate hits 50 we are all shocked. We also see that the majority of guns used in crime in and around the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) are smuggled in from the States. The City and Provincial Governments are pushing Ottawa for an outright ban on handguns and the majority of people are in favour. Yours is a country born from a violent revolution whereas ours was born 90 years later through negotiation and patience. We did not rebel against the Mother Country. in point of fact it wasn't until around 1949 that we broke all political ties with England and even then up until our Constitution was repatriated, the old B.N.A. Act (British North America) could not be amended without the English Parliament approving it. So you see we are definitely a different kettle of fish. We have been called the "Gentle North Americans" but that doesn't mean we will sit back and get walked over and as you know we are your greatest and closest ally and will fight when the need arises and the cause is just.


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Taliesin 
Posted: 20-Mar-2009, 12:28 PM
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Oh, don't get me started on ridiculously unjust wars!!! lol

grumble grumble Middle East, grumble grumble Iraq.... smile.gif

Thank you for your thoughtful post Camac. I DO understand that things are different up north, and I respect that. This is why I was posting an explanation of WHY the officer might have wanted to bring a gun with him. You may argue that it's the culture, etc., and I will not belabor that point. I also point to the fact that officers in the States often carry their firearms everywhere, with no exceptions.

Thank you again for the thoughtful post.
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Patch 
Posted: 20-Mar-2009, 12:53 PM
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QUOTE (oldraven @ 20-Mar-2009, 12:17 PM)


Just as hockey is celebrated in Canadian media, guns are celebrated by the same in the US. You rarely see an American hero in a movie or television show that doesn't have a gun in his/her hand. That's the fascination I think Camac was getting at. You may not see it that way, but from the outside looking in it is very clear that your society is indoctrinated by the use of guns in everyday life.

Our national interests are Football, Baseball and Basketball. The shooting sports are not at the forefront. Our TV and Movies for the most part do not involve firearms. It those are the American shows you see in Canada, it would seem to indicate those are the ones Canadians "want" to watch. Viewers drive the market.

There are about 90 M gun owners out of about 360 M people. (25% own firearms)

Many Americans who support the right to bear arms do not own them.

It appears that many Canadians are buying into myths about our way of life.

A comment was posted some time ago that most illegal guns in Canada come from the US. That is reasonable as most of the legal guns there come from the US also. Canada has no facility manufacturing firearms at this time and has had none for quite some time. (Reference, The Blue Book of Firearms Values)

I may have posted this before but doubt it due to some words in it. This really happened. The woman receieved a small fine and lost her hand gun (I hope she had a spare hidden away) The two rapist's got prision sentences where they could only be the "catchers." (Sorry for the inuendo) By the way, the grand daughter was in that area as part of her Govt. job and I do not advocate those who own firearms engaging in police work as granny did. Australia's violent crime rate has escalated astronomicaly since firearms were turned in.

The Rambo Granny of Melbourne , Australia


Gun-toting granny Ava Estelle, 81, was so ticked-off when two thugs raped her 18-year-old granddaughter that she tracked the unsuspecting ex-cons down - and shot off their testicles.


The old lady spent a week hunting those men down, and when she found them, she took revenge on them in her own special way, said Melbourne police investigator Evan Delp. Then she took a taxi to the nearest police station, laid the gun on the sergeant's desk and told him as calm as could be: 'Those bastards will never rape anybody again, by God.'


Cops say convicted rapist and robber Davis Furth, 33, lost both his pen-s and his testicles when outraged Ava opened fire with a 9-mm pistol in the hotel room where he and former prison cell mate Stanley Thomas, 29, were holed up.


The wrinkled avenger also blew Thomas' testicles to kingdom come, but doctors managed to save his mangled pen-s, police said. 'The one guy, Thomas, didn't lose his manhood, 'but the doctor I talked to said he won't be using it the way he used to,'


Detective Delp told reporters. 'Both men are still in pretty bad shape, 'but I think they're just happy to be alive after what they've been through.'


The Rambo Granny swung into action August 21 after her granddaughter Debbie was carjacked and raped in broad daylight by two knife-wielding creeps in a section of town bordering on skid row.


'When I saw the look on my Debbie's face that night in the hospital, 'I decided I was going to go out and get those bastards myself ''cause I figured the Law would go easy on them,' recalled the retired library worker..


'And I wasn't scared of them, either - because I've got me a gun and I've been shootin' all my life. 'And I wasn't dumb enough to turn it in when the law changed about owning one.'


So, using a police artist's sketch of the suspects and Debbie's description of the sickos, tough-as-nails Ava spent seven days prowling the wino-infested neighborhood where the crime took place till she spotted the ill-fated rapists entering their flophouse hotel.


'I knew it was them the minute I saw 'em, but I shot a picture of 'em anyway 'and took it back to Debbie and she said sure as hell, it was them,' the oldster recalled..


'So I went back to that hotel and found their room and knocked on the door, 'and the minute the big one opened the door, I shot 'em right square between the legs,'right where it would really hurt 'em most, you know.


'Then I went in and shot the other one 'as he backed up pleading to me to spare him.'Then I went down to the police station and turned myself in.'


Now, baffled lawmen are trying to figure out exactly how to deal with the vigilante granny. 'What she did was wrong,and she broke the law, but it is difficult to throw an 81-year-old woman in prison,' Det. Delp said, 'especially when 3 million people in the city want to nominate her for Mayor.'

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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 20-Mar-2009, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE
......two knife-wielding creeps in a section of town bordering on skid row.


Isn't it interesting how even if you make it difficult for everyone to be armed how the criminals will come up with alternate "tools of their trade"? The Brits are entertaining new laws on knives because all the "punks" and "gang bangers" are carrying knives. Man was killing man long before any firearms existed and we'll be killing each other long after they cease to exist (assuming we last that long).

The Old Colt Manufacturing Advertizement: "God made man, but Samuel Colt made them equal," may be hyperbole, but there is still a great amount of truth in it. Before the firearm certain physical characteristics gave individuals considerable advantage over others of lesser physical ability.


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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 20-Mar-2009, 05:33 PM
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"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA – ordinary citizens don’t need guns, as their having guns doesn’t serve the State."

~ Heinrich Himmler; Reichsführer-SS


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oldraven 
Posted: 20-Mar-2009, 07:37 PM
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QUOTE (Taliesin @ 20-Mar-2009, 10:01 AM)
Olraven, I'm asking you to have some empathy to understand where someone was coming from. You apparently have no desire to do that, but would prefer everyone else have it for Canadians. That is unreasonable.

Any misunderstanding would have been cleared up when I said "They would be wrong, of course". Which is how I know you did not read my post.

All I ask is what people are demanding of me, which is that I understand where they're coming from.

As for your perception of my culture, I could care less. I have little respect for popular media unless it makes me laugh. (I've never seen the protagonists of The Big Bang Theory with a gun in their hands, but admittedly, I've not seen every episode.) The people I know are interested in defending their families, because criminals are in existence, and many of them do have guns. I read the news stories.

But again, I am perhaps asking too much that you understand the point of view of another, as you ask of everyone else. Again, please note I said "They would be wrong, of course." Also please note that I've said many times that if someone is guilty of violating the law, they should expect to have penalties applied to them.

If there's a misunderstanding, it's because you only read what you choose to in my posts.

I regret that this got blown out of proportion. Don't worry, I read your entire post, and the ones that followed. I understood your stance, as you stated it, every time. I replied to one part of the first post, that I thought made an irrelevant point. I didn't say anything about the rest of the post because I didn't see anything to comment on. There obviously has been a misunderstanding. Any frustration was about the police officer bringing their weapon here, which wasn't explained fully the first time around (NS made it sound like he showed up at the border with the gun on him.). I didn't agree that the honest mistake you felt might explain why a cop would have his weapon with him on vacation (see, I did read it wink.gif ) had much to do with it. And yes, I noted that you said it was wrong to do so. No worries.

And the Big Bang Theory is the best comedy on TV right now. thumbs_up.gif I don't consider any of those people 'hero' material, though.

By my media statement, I'm talking about the folks on the many MANY crime dramas that come from US networks (it's not so much that Canadian channels have select US shows, but the fact that this is what I've personally seen on the many US Networks that we get on our satellite dishes and cable plans. We even get your local news, depending on the city the station is based in), not to mention the vast majority of non period action movies, which are many, from Hollywood. We get the same films up here that you do in the States. Rambo is a great example of the time that I remember this fascination start to grow like crazy. The number of games I remember having guns in them in the 80's was extremely few, but now nearly half of the games out there put a gun in your hands.

As for knives, we already have laws on what size of knife a person can carry on them at any given time. I can't remember now, but I think it's anything over 8"(blade). This was the case when I was a kid, which was long before things like the Gun Registry (which I agree is a waste of time and resources) came into effect.

I agree with everything Camac has said, and it does show a great deal about the different way Americans and Canadians see the world. I don't think either one is more 'right', but I prefer the Canadian way, since it's the way I was raised and the system I was indoctrinated into.
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 20-Mar-2009, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE
Dogshirt'

I also have been in that situation and I lose no sleep over the fact that I killed in War. What I hate about guns is a personal matter having to do with what possession of a firearm does to me phsycologically. I am not alone up here in my position on guns. Yesterday a Saskatchewan Member of Parliament in favour of abolishing Long Gun Registration had to withdraw from being the speaker at a dinner hosted by the gun lobbist due to the public outcry against him because of his stance in favour of semi-automatic, automatic, and assault weapons being taken off the restricted list.
Also people wern't to happy that a Berreta 9mm automatic pistol was being raffled off to raise money.



Camac.


Camac,

I do understand your feelings. Although I do not know what the phscological state might be. This is personal and I won,t ask you to elaborate.
However, I have carried a sidearm in my car since I was 17. Only once in almost 40 years have I pulled it out for anything other than target shooting. That night on a dark highway about 35 miles from anything, a pickup decided to play games on the freeway. They would pass us, then slow down, when we went by they would pass us and slow down again. After we passed them for the 5th time, I told my wife to take the next exit. When she did, they got off and parked behind us with their bright lights on. When I got out, pistol in hand, and VISIBLY jacked one into the chamber, they took off at a high rate of speed. There was no cop around, and if I wasn't armed and ready to defend my wife and myself, I don't want to contemplate what the outcome might have been.
CAN I kill? Yes. HAVE I killed? Yes. Do I care about this class of people? Not one bit. I'll shoot them the same as a dog that kills livestock. Human life means no more to me than any other species. As long as they BEHAVE, fine. Otherwise we are ALL better off without them.
If I come across as harsh, it is not the gun, but my own view of the human animal, that slants my perspective. We can ALL live without folks like that. And YES I do feel I'm entitled to decide that, God knows the Courts won't do it!


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Patch 
Posted: 20-Mar-2009, 10:22 PM
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I do not see your comments as harsh, just realistic. As for military experiences, we all come away with our own perceptions. One who has not been there can not know the extent of the effect it has on those they sent to fight. It is better that way.

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flora 
Posted: 05-Apr-2009, 08:51 AM
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The town that I live in is relatively small. Last night an elderly couple (80's) who were handicapped was attacked by a 24 year old yielding a knife in the parking lot of Target. Both were stabbed repeatedly. The reason is not known yet. I wondered if it was drug related. With the economy the way it is, many in this area are selling unnecessary items and I would imagine stolen items are not getting the price they used to so I believe they are going for cash. This has bother me so much. I can't fathom abuse of children or the elderly who can't defend themselves. Even though I have a concealed weapon permit, I believe it would be a good idea for both myself, daughter, and daughter-in-law to take a self defense course. The police are overburden with crime and with cutbacks cannot be everywhere needed.

Flora


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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 05-Apr-2009, 09:30 AM
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QUOTE (flora @ 05-Apr-2009, 09:51 AM)
.......The police are overburden with crime and with cutbacks cannot be everywhere needed.

Yet in Detroit the police have time to stop "Pillow Crime".

Featherweights: Detroit police halt pillow fight

Now you need a permit to carry a pillow! rolleyes.gif
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flora 
Posted: 05-Apr-2009, 10:17 AM
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biggrin.gif Thanks MacEoghainn I enjoyed that. I have to say that I am guilty of many pillow fights. And I am usually the one to clean up all the feathers. It makes me an avid supporter of the blow up boxing gloves. tongue.gif

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Patch 
Posted: 05-Apr-2009, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE (flora @ 05-Apr-2009, 09:51 AM)
The town that I live in is relatively small.  Last night an elderly couple (80's) who were handicapped was attacked by a 24 year old yielding a  knife in the parking lot of Target.  Both were stabbed repeatedly.  The reason is not known yet.  I wondered if it was drug related.  With the economy the way it is, many in this area are selling unnecessary items and I would imagine stolen items are not getting the price they used to so I believe they are going for cash.  This has bother me so much.  I can't fathom abuse of children or the elderly who can't defend themselves.  Even though I have a concealed weapon permit, I believe it would be a good idea for both myself, daughter, and daughter-in-law to take a self defense course.  The police are overburden with crime and with cutbacks cannot be everywhere needed.

Flora

Law enforcement was never meant to prevent crime, only to find those who committed the crime. Once in a great while, they happen to be in the right place at the right time. Considering the recent rash of killings, in some instances a legally trained and licenced individual on the scene could have stopped the carnage. New Hampshire has the lowest crime rate in the US. They also have nearly the lowest if not the lowest number of legitimate shootings in The US. Why the low crime rate? Anyone who can buy a hand gun under federal law can carry it in that state and criminals do not know who is carrying. "Little Italy" in NYC is the safest part of NYC for similar reasons as no one knows who is armed (legal or otherwise) Being shot is an occupational hazard for criminals.

Our best bet is to provide for our own safety. Probably the most important thing to remember is, do not "look" like an easy mark. Predators always tend to attack the weakest. Do not wear a lot of expensive jewelry. No one wants to dress in shabby clothing but never over dress as it attracts attention also. I have numerous suits and sports coats. If I need to dress up for a meeting I wear a nondescript over coat or rain coat to hide the suit. Or, I dress at the event. Go in groups, the more the better. Stay in well lit areas if you must go out at night. Try to park close to your destination as there are likely to be more people near the store, theater or restaurant. Also, You can set off your Auto panic alarm. Any noise making device will make people look, the louder the better. I prefer a siren as a criminal's first thought is the police. Those can be purchased and installed under the hood of the car and activated with a remote. Pretend to faint. (not good for the elderly on pavement.) That too attracts attention. a 100K stun stick is small but effective. Mine is a 600K model.

When I got my carry license, nearly 7 years ago, there was an elderly man in his 70's getting his. I was doing some fine tuning on my friends hand gun and the old gentleman (I am about there now) asked if I could do the same for his. As I was working on it, I asked him why he decided to get a license. He said he was concerned that the day was coming soon that he would need it to get groceries home from the store. I wish I would have had more time to talk to him that day. As we get older, we accumulate a store house of observations and we have more time than most to think about them.

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