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haynes9 
Posted: 11-Oct-2006, 03:11 PM
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QUOTE (aliviel27 @ 11-Oct-2006, 12:55 PM)
I have seen people sitting in a Church on a Sunday and also seen them do the worst things they can do when they don't go to Church. Many of them are hypocrites.

Being a preacher, I can certainly tell you that I have seen my share of hypocrites in church. I have also seen them at Wal-mart, in factories, in schools, in politics, in virtually every walk of life. I think you get my point.

Churches do not have the corner on the hypocrite market. Some choose never to go to church again because of hypocrites. I can understand that. However, since I like to eat, I have chosen to continue to go to the grocery store, even though there are some hypocrites that work there.

Point is, generalization is a risky thing.

Have a great day!


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Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost. -- John Quincy Adams

Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less - Robert E. Lee

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved - Romans 10:13 (KJV)

The Lord is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble, and he knoweth them that trust in him - Nahum 1:7 (KJV)
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haynes9 
Posted: 11-Oct-2006, 05:02 PM
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What a bad situation, Aliviel27! I am so sorry you went through that and am ashamed that this person would name the name of Christ.

The Bible condemns hypocrisy. There is a story of a religious leader in the Bible (called a Pharisee) who was arrogant and proud of his background and looked down on others who had not reached his "level." The Bible says he "prayed with himself" which is very true. The Lord was not interested in his prayer. Int he same room was a publican (similar to a tax collector of today) who did not even feel worthy to look up. All he asked of God was mercy. Scripture states the publican was justified and the Pharisee was not.

Let me also say this. Not everyone who names the name of Christ knows Him. The Bible is clear on that. As human beings, we cannot look into the heart of a man. We are limited to what we see on the outside. I have been cussed out by some people who claimed to be good church members. It is hard for me to believe that they know the same Christ as I do.

You asked does God forgive people like this man who wronged you. Yes, He does. He forgives any who come to Him in genuine repentance over their sin. I cannot judge this man who wronged you, but it seems to me that if he was really living what he claims to believe, he should have come to you personally and admitted his wrong and asked for your forgiveness and then have done all he could to make it right. It is a "cop out' used by many people to say that God has forgiven them and then they never seek to make things right with the one they have wronged.

I can tell you this. God forgave and continue to forgive me when I do wrong. To be honest, I'm a pretty sorry human being, I think. I can be selfish, self centered, and pretty much every other vice you can name. But I do seek to be a better man, husband, and dad and regularly ask the Lord to show me my faults and help me make things right with those I have wronged. I have had to apologize to folks on this forum for my attitude. That's what being a true believer is about.

By the way, thank you for your honest spirit. You come across to me as one who is more interested in knowing the truth that proving your point of view. I wish I could say that all Christians are like that!

I am praying for the health situation you are in. May the Lord give you many good pain free days, my friend.

Have a great day!
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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 11-Oct-2006, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE (reddrake79 @ 29-Sep-2006, 03:33 PM)
Then it would be the people talking about the bible, not the bible itself that is subjective.
Is it correct to assume that a person who believes this way does not believe in an all powerful God that can work outside the known standards of science?

undoubtedly there were other witnesses to the same events that wrote their experiences down, but the ones collected into the Bible are the ones given authority for near 2000 years.

My belief is that an all powerful God selected these writings from any others because they say what he wants them to say. The way they understood their experiences was the correct way and the way that God wanted people to remember. Look at some of the writers: Moses, chosen to lead an entire nation out of captivity. David, king who the bible calls- A man after God's own heart. Mathew & John: 2 of Jesus' desciples that spent a lot of time with Him. Peter: also 1 of the 12 who later went all over the roman empire preaching. Saul (Paul) a member of one of the strictest sects of the Jews who converted to christianity

I think these people were in a good position to know God.

First, the bible is not an object, but a recording done by individuals. Even if it is the word of God, it would be the subjective opinons and recordings of God. Unless of course it is the belief that God is the supreme form of objectivity.

Also, I do not think is is correct to assume that this belief corresponds with the disbelief in an all powerful God. This is not a lack of faith in God, it is a lack of faith in the bible. Some might say this is one in the same, but I disagree. I do not beleive that the men in charge of handling the writings of the bible are infalible. But that is simply my subjective opinon of the bible.

Perhaps the people involved were in a position to know God. Perhaps the supposed writers of the bible were just a group of people or one person collecting history and giving historical events a divine explanation. The fact is that only those who wrote the bible knew whether they were honest or not, and only God knows who really was divinely inspired and who was mentally ill and hallucinating. I choose to discover my own way to God rather than trust in the Bible.

However, just because people do not follow the bible does not make what is in the bible false. We have laws in this country that make murder illegal. That does not force people not to kill, nor do muderers invalidate the laws. The bible does have many good teachings, and the fact that people don't follow those teachings does not have anything to do with their validity. According to the Bible God gave man free will. Free will means we can choose to follow God or not, as far as I understand it.

I truly believe in a higher power, and I also believe that that higher power meddles in our affairs very little. If someone chooses their own path in opposition to that higher power, that is their right. But that does not mean their are not consequences. The evil acts of men does not prove that a God doesn't exist. It mearly proves that evil does exist. The righteous acts of men proves that there is also an opposite to evil. God has nothing to do with these choices, they are our own.


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user posted imageuser posted imageuser posted image
May those who love us love us
And those who don't love us
May God turn their hearts,
And if He doesn't turn their hearts,
May He turn their ankles,
So we'll know them by their limping.
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haynes9 
Posted: 11-Oct-2006, 09:23 PM
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I will certainly keep you in prayer, my friend. If I can be a listening ear for you, that's fine.

We had our prayer service tonight here on the Navajo Nation and the little group of folks in our church prayed for you specifically. Sometimes it helps me just knowing others are out there that care.


I hope you can get some answers and get treatment more suited to the actual problem. Keep us posted on any progress in that area.

Take care and I hope we can visit again soon.
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gwen 
Posted: 16-Oct-2006, 12:28 PM
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haynes9...thank you for your postings. i always enjoy your benevolent wisdom and your faith. it is very true that just knowing there are others out there that care makes a tremendous difference. also knowing that our Father is there is warm and comforting.

i am sorry that you are troubled, Aliviel27. you will be in my thoughts and prayers as well.


--------------------
warm heart, warm hearth
bring me to thee-
out of the world's bluster and bite.
i'll hold my children
in a place soft and light,
and welcome the wanderer
that knocks at my door.
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haynes9 
Posted: 17-Oct-2006, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (gwen @ 16-Oct-2006, 11:28 AM)
haynes9...thank you for your postings. i always enjoy your benevolent wisdom and your faith. it is very true that just knowing there are others out there that care makes a tremendous difference. also knowing that our Father is there is warm and comforting.

Thank you for your kindness, Gwen. As for wisdom, could I quote you to my kids biggrin.gif ?

Seriously, thanks for the kind comments. I am not a theologian or a philosopher. I just want to try and be a blessing to folks and stand firmly on my faith, yet without coming across as if I were better than someone else.

Take care and have a great day!
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John Clements 
Posted: 24-Apr-2007, 04:42 PM
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In light of what’s going on these days. Maybe there is something to the idea of “revelation”. Or, maybe we’re just going to get to the “truth”. The question is: can you handle it?

Oh yes, I’m so happy to hear, that now, all un-baptized children will be going to “heaven” instead of limbo, along with all of us who dared to eat meat on Fridays.

That is of course, unless you’ve been to confession, in which case you get a free pass.

You know what. I’d probably still love you all, even if “god” were left out of the picture.

JC


--------------------
We’re all poets, only some of us write it down. JC 9/27/08

Anyone who has the courage to disagree, deserves all do respect. JC 4/28/08

Life is a loosing battle, so you might as well live it up.
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Life should be like skiing, you have the most fun on the way down. J.C. 8/17/07

Take their word for it, and that’s just what you’ll get.
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Only the truth is worth the ultimate sacrifice.
J.C. 1/26/06

Compared to the far right, the far left is somewhere in the middle. J.C. 2/22/06

I’ll be the first to apologies, as long as I get one back.
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It’s a happy man, who can laugh at himself.

If you’re looking for a new experience, don’t hire someone with a lot of it. J.C. sometime in 1990
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Antwn 
Posted: 26-Apr-2007, 12:39 PM
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QUOTE (John Clements @ 24-Apr-2007, 04:42 PM)
You know what. I’d probably still love you all, even if “god” were left out of the picture.


Good for you John, and you're probably not alone. Not everyone needs a justification from on high. For some, a simple choice is enough.


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Yr hen Gymraeg i mi,
Hon ydyw iaith teimladau,
Ac adlais i guriadau
Fy nghalon ydyw hi
--- Mynyddog
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haynes9 
Posted: 26-Apr-2007, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (John Clements @ 24-Apr-2007, 03:42 PM)
Oh yes, I’m so happy to hear, that now, all un-baptized children will be going to “heaven” instead of limbo, along with all of us who dared to eat meat on Fridays.

That is of course, unless you’ve been to confession, in which case you get a free pass.

You know what. I’d probably still love you all, even if “god” were left out of the picture.

JC

Hey John, you didn't imply this, but let me go ahead and say it anyway wink.gif ! Not all theologies condemned unbaptized infants to eternal damnation. In fact, we independent Baptists don't baptize infants at all. And I also don't have a confessional for folks to tell me about their sins. There is One that they can confess to and I'm not Him. And I am not saying that you were using the "broad brush" with your statements. Just thought I'd toss in a little clarity for my own sake.

Trust you've been doing well. We haven't had a good argument in a while! What's this forum coming to tongue.gif ?

Have a great day.
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John Clements 
Posted: 27-Apr-2007, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE (CelticCoalition @ 11-Oct-2006, 06:50 PM)
The evil acts of men does not prove that a God doesn't exist.  It mearly proves that evil does exist.  The righteous acts of men proves that there is also an opposite to evil.  God has nothing to do with these choices, they are our own.

You took the words right out of my mouth. JC
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John Clements 
Posted: 27-Apr-2007, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (haynes9 @ 26-Apr-2007, 05:04 PM)
QUOTE (John Clements @ 24-Apr-2007, 03:42 PM)
Oh yes, I’m so happy to hear, that now, all un-baptized children will be going to “heaven” instead of limbo, along with all of us who dared to eat meat on Fridays.

That is of course, unless you’ve been to confession, in which case you get a free pass.

You know what. I’d probably still love you all, even if “god” were left out of the picture.

JC

Hey John, you didn't imply this, but let me go ahead and say it anyway wink.gif ! Not all theologies condemned unbaptized infants to eternal damnation. In fact, we independent Baptists don't baptize infants at all. And I also don't have a confessional for folks to tell me about their sins. There is One that they can confess to and I'm not Him. And I am not saying that you were using the "broad brush" with your statements. Just thought I'd toss in a little clarity for my own sake.

Trust you've been doing well. We haven't had a good argument in a while! What's this forum coming to tongue.gif ?

Have a great day.

I love you hanynes9, but I’m afraid it’s time to take off the gloves.
Now here’s the way I see it. In the beginning, that is when man first crawled out of the slime. He worshiped things he didn’t understand, and couldn’t control. Natural things, like the sun, the moon, the earth, the seas and so on. He even went so far as to sacrifice animals and humans, to appease these “gods”.
Then, some where along the line, somebody, (most likely an opportunist), had the bright idea of creating the big kahuna god. A god above all other gods, a god, coincidently, created in our own image. A god, they could be control, for there own benefit.
So, since then, (oh I don’t know the exact order of the religions), but let’s begin with Judaism, which begot the Christians, which begot Protestants, which begot Baptists, which begot born gains, and so on. Of course that’s not to forget Islam, Buddhism, and all those other spin off religions out there. All religions, which preach more or less the same guarantee of a wonderful life in the here after, (I like to think of it as an insurance policy), of going to so called heaven. Providing of course, that you continue to drop money in the basket, and promise not to start your own religion, less you’ll be condemned for eternity. (It all sounds like a “Wall Street stock split to me). If you ask me, I think we should go should go back to Paganism, (minus the human sacrificing of course). At least then we’ll be able to see and feel, the real gods of nature.
JC

PS: Sorry about my poor writing of this, prior to my editing. Not that it’s much better now.
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connor1985 
Posted: 12-Sep-2007, 09:22 AM
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hey not trying to restart any old fights but i would like to get this topic rolling again so lets post what we think and bring this back


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May all your hardships fade away till night becomes morn, may love remain to guide your way... till the day we are reborn.

Untill the day till all are one.

Every man dies, not every man really lives.

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John Clements 
Posted: 16-Nov-2007, 01:11 PM
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http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

I think this movie just about says it all.
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John Clements 
Posted: 27-Nov-2007, 09:12 AM
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Well it’s been some 10 days or so, since I posted the movie: “ZEITGEIST”…and even though it’s been hit on some 30 times, I have yet to see one response to it?

So here I am wondering...could it be that most of you don’t have a computer capable of playing the movie, or could it be, that the movie left you dumb founded, as it did me?

Come to think of it…maybe I should have posted the movie on “The Grove”, under (Cultural Theft), because I believe it fits in that category as well.

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Sorry if it rocks your world.
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John Clements 
Posted: 04-Jan-2008, 12:32 PM
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Hi Paul! Just thought you’d like to know, that my records show that my last post on this thread was on 11/16/07. At which time there were some 1351 viewers, (which is far cry from what the thread now shows). And in addition when I last checked this thread, which was the day before the system failure on 12/24/07, (which believe me, I totally understand, having a great deal of experience with failure) it had a total of some 1439 viewers?

Now please don’t misunderstand me. In truth the posting dates and the viewer count don’t really matter that much to me. But what does matte, is the message of the movie that I posted. That is of course if one can get past George Carlin’s rue-teen, in which case one might actually hear the truth, for a change. (That is at least in my opinion)! You know what they say: “The devils in the details”.

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Like the sub head of this thread says: “Enter if you dare but don’t get offended”. (Which is sort of like saying…“don’t take it personally”! When they fire you! Isn’t it?

Anyway thanks,
JC
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