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> What If We Are Wrong?, Enter if you dare but don't be offended
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connor1985 
Posted: 02-Apr-2006, 02:03 PM
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Raven besides asking the question of what if those texts were copied wrong i really haven't said the bible told anyone to do anything. i was speaking about the church leaders at the time not the text. just wanted to clear that up a bit.

greenldydragon i must say that was something to really think about. you see i think that may be where i am at i know there has to be a greater power but like you said the question is who or what. with so many different religions around the world its hard to say who is wrong and who is right in the end it all comes down to choice. one of our greatest gifts and curse. don't get me wrong i love being able to choose and do what i want but if you really think about it's because we can choose to be of do evil things that make the world a scary place to live in. now i hope we never lose that right of choice because great things have came from it and i think that shows that whoever created us has limitless forgiveness and no matter what we do we can always find forgiveness in his/her eyes.


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connor1985 
Posted: 05-Apr-2006, 08:21 PM
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just posting to get this back at the top and see if more people will add their thoughts to this. all of a sudden it died and that worries me i would love to debate more with anyone or just hear what others want to say.
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Nova Scotian 
  Posted: 06-Apr-2006, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (connor1985 @ 20-Mar-2006, 10:57 PM)
i hope this will cause some debating but i also hope no one is offended by this.

has anyone thought what if we are wrong and christians were wrong about everything. what if we are following the wrong god? i'm not saying i serve the devil or anything because i don't at this point and time i really serve nothing and no one. my problem is i question a lot of stuff and when it isn't answered i find the answers any way i can and that usually doesn't sit to will with the christian groups i know. because of this i have broken away from all church activities and services until some of these questions are answered. (no i'm sorry i choose not to list the questions i prefer to find them on my own) but in doing this it has opened my eyes to many things and i've began to read about different religions and stuff they don't and some make more since then others. personally i think we should take some information from groups and use it in our lives it would make the world a much nicer place to live in. one group i that really interests me is buddist. i'm not really going to talk about but i do suggest reading a little about them its something quite different. however i do believe in you get what you deserve (KARMA!) just a thought and i'd like to hear from others and get ideas and thoughts.

I look at it this way, I'm a good person and in most faiths, that's all you need in order to be saved. Well in Christianity you are born with an uncurable disease called sin. The only way out is to except Jesus as the sacrifice that you rightfully diserve. If I'm wrong, then I'm OK because I think I'm a good person and I always try to do good and when I think of doing bad, I get convicted. If I'm right, I'm safe as well because I know my sin is forgiven because Jesus died in my place.


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reddrake79 
Posted: 16-Apr-2006, 06:31 PM
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Do any system of beliefs realy give you a choice except for christianity? In every other system (I am familiar with) the way to get to heaven is through the things you do on this earth. i.e. selfless acts, giving to the homeless, finding inner peace, etc. How do these systems assure the individual that he has done enough to get into heaven? Without that assurance how can someone make a choice? No one wants to go to Hell. (unless of course they don't understand what hell is) If you don't want to go to hell and you don't have any assurance that you are going to heaven, how can you make the decision to do something wrong when you may never get the chance to do something good to counteract it? How does a person know if they have done something good enough to counterbalance a bad act? Does giving to the homeless make up for taking someone's life? Biblical Christianity is the only belief that assures the most horrid and debase person that they can still go to heaven even at the end of their utterly corrupt life.


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Nightchild 
Posted: 17-Apr-2006, 05:12 AM
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As I see it, it's not doing something that makes up for a bad act. It's rather regretting the bad thing you've done. This means that other religions that work with some kind of heaven assure that you can go to heaven if you live by some kind of moral.
But then again, regretting is something you do, too...

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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 17-Apr-2006, 09:03 AM
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QUOTE (reddrake79 @ 16-Apr-2006, 06:31 PM)
Do any system of beliefs realy give you a choice except for christianity? In every other system (I am familiar with) the way to get to heaven is through the things you do on this earth. i.e. selfless acts, giving to the homeless, finding inner peace, etc. How do these systems assure the individual that he has done enough to get into heaven? Without that assurance how can someone make a choice? No one wants to go to Hell. (unless of course they don't understand what hell is) If you don't want to go to hell and you don't have any assurance that you are going to heaven, how can you make the decision to do something wrong when you may never get the chance to do something good to counteract it? How does a person know if they have done something good enough to counterbalance a bad act? Does giving to the homeless make up for taking someone's life? Biblical Christianity is the only belief that assures the most horrid and debase person that they can still go to heaven even at the end of their utterly corrupt life.

This is all true! I believe is a disease that we can never rid ourselves of by our own works. Only the blood of Christ can rid us of that disease. No matter what you've done or how hurrendous of horriffic it is.
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Raven 
Posted: 17-Apr-2006, 10:24 AM
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QUOTE (connor1985 @ 02-Apr-2006, 02:03 PM)
Raven besides asking the question of what if those texts were copied wrong i really haven't said the bible told anyone to do anything. i was speaking about the church leaders at the time not the text. just wanted to clear that up a bit.


It's all good Conner, I just know that a lot of people are under the misconception that people act on what the Bible says to slaughter other people. It is a common thing to see someone write that more people have been killed over the Bible, making it look as if it is an argument over something said in the Bible or that the Bible caused them to kill because of it's words.

A short version of how we can have assurance that the Bible has not been copied wrong.

If you look at what experts on writings of antiquity say about the New Testament and the Old Testament (Regardless of whether they are Christian or not) you will find a unanimous agreement among them that the New Testament and the Old Testament are the most reliable/accurate works of antiquity #'s1 & 2 respectively by a huge factor.

More information on this along with extensive documentation can be found in a book by Josh McDowell "Evidence that Demands a Verdict"

I hope that helps

Mikel


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Aaediwen 
Posted: 18-Apr-2006, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE (reddrake79 @ 16-Apr-2006, 06:31 PM)
Do any system of beliefs realy give you a choice except for christianity?  In every other system (I am familiar with)  the way to get to heaven is through the things you do on this earth.  i.e. selfless acts, giving to the homeless, finding inner peace, etc.  How do these systems assure the individual that he has done enough to get into heaven?  Without that assurance how can someone make a choice?  No one wants to go to Hell.  (unless of course they don't understand what hell is)  If you don't want to go to hell and you don't have any assurance that you are going to heaven, how can you make the decision to do something wrong when you may never get the chance to do something good to counteract it?  How does a person know if they have done something good enough to counterbalance a bad act?  Does giving to the homeless make up for taking someone's life? Biblical Christianity is the only belief that assures the most horrid and debase person that they can still go to heaven even at the end of their utterly corrupt life.

What you're saying here sounds to me like no Christian would have a valid reason to actually lead a good life since everyone has a cheap way out by laying it all on Jesus. Now this probably isn't what you mean (at least I hope it's not). In either case I don't agree with the viewpoint myself, as I read it. As far as assurance of Heaven from the perspective of other religons, I can't speak for all, but I believe it is based on if you can honestly say to yourself that you've led a true life. The ability to do so would require a true soul. Even if you've no regrets about being a serial killing rapist your entire life, I seriously doubt you'd have an easy time convincing yourself that you've led a good, true life in the end.

The very concept of what one calls Heaven, differs to varying degrees depending on how you believe. This is true between even various Christian denominations. I've heard some Christian descriptions of Heaven that sound absolutely wonderful, while I've heard others that would make Hell sound like quite a welcome place in comparison.

From my own perspective, Can one lead an untrue life and truely have accepted Christ? I'd say not. If you lead an honestly true life, then are you not in line with Christ, no matter what name you may use?

It's possible that my statement may be mis-construed when taken out of context of my beliefs. I can hear someone already posting "But the question is not just following him, but believing he died for your sins, and is the savior" In this I will point to my belief in one polynomial, multi-faceted diety. That one God as several names and faces. With them, he/she presented the same message in various ways to various people all through history. Jesus, and his death to clense the sins of the world, is one of these identities. And accepting that he died for the sins of the world is one name for the deeper message of accepting God. Not everyone believes the same way. I don't believe that makes anyone right or wrong though. If we're truthfully talking about an omnipotent devine being, then who are we to say God or Goddess cannot have a great many identities, to present the same core message to many groups of people in many ways. And who are we to assume that they have to tell us everything?

The Christian phrasing is to walk the path of Jesus, and to follow him. Every religon I've studies has an analogy to that, all talking of the same path. If you're not on that path, you'll know it as you trudge through the muck and the mud, lost for eternity. If you're on that path, it doesn't matter what name you use for the path or for they who lead you. It's all the same destination.


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Antwn 
Posted: 01-May-2006, 06:33 PM
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Einstein had a good point. Certainly we can rise to a greater vision than that. Problem is people believe that without obedience to outside direction their inner vision is not trustworthy. They've been trained to believe so by religion, for its religion which sets up the trap Einstein refers to - fabricates an inescapable problem, provides a solution only through adopting the specific religion, then presents an eternal consequence of the choice. It makes a mockery of both the divine and the human - the divine becomes tyrannical and the human inept.


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Siobhan Blues 
Posted: 12-May-2006, 08:35 AM
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QUOTE (Aaediwen @ 18-Apr-2006, 05:44 PM)
From my own perspective, Can one lead an untrue life and truely have accepted Christ? I'd say not. If you lead an honestly true life, then are you not in line with Christ, no matter what name you may use?...
The Christian phrasing is to walk the path of Jesus, and to follow him... If you're not on that path, you'll know it as you trudge through the muck and the mud, lost for eternity. ..

From personal experience and from having chosen to follow Christ at the young age of 11, I must say that once I chose Him I've found that He simply won't leave me alone! In choosing a husband, a career, in seeking life direction in making decisions - Christ has a tight grip on my hand, and when I get misdirected or timid He either tugs or pushes me along. biggrin.gif He's done the most unusual things too to get my attention when I tend to stray - stuff I'm not imagining, its just to strange and personal for that. I couldn't come up with this stuff on my own!
All that to say, I think too that if you're not on the path you'll know it. Sure doubt comes, and second-guessing and fears and uncertainty. But HE LEADS when you ask... its the 'seek and you'll find, knock and the door opens' concept. He keeps His promises. If He weren't real, if He weren't The One then I would have slipped into miserable oblivion years ago.


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connor1985 
Posted: 13-Jun-2006, 12:55 PM
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now don't get me wrong i to have accepted christ at a young age but as i grew up i began to questions things and those questions have lead me to making this topic. like i have said i just hate being told i shouldn't ask certian questions just because someone either doesn't have the answer or just doesn't think i should know. i have been told so many times that i shouldn't ask things and have been turned away so that is what has pushed me to doing my own research. i have made many friends in all different religions some i acted in more then others some i wish i never would have found but that is part of life we all do things we aren't proud of. now in my study i have found that some other religions gave some answers i was looking for and others made more. me personally i wish we could all go back to the old days where we were one with nature and quit trying to contain and control everything. not only did life seem a little easier but you didn't hear about all these horrible events happening around the world. who knows maybe no one is right and everything was just a story told to keep the many in line to the few. like i said i just wanted to get other peoples thoughts on this topic so keep posting and keep the debate alive.
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ShadowDarkFyre 
Posted: 19-Jun-2006, 05:05 PM
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cool.gif People need to go back to the precept of "Your belief is your own business, and respect the beliefs of others." Human nature, more often than not unfortunately, tends to rob people of good hobbit sense from time to time.



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reddrake79 
Posted: 21-Aug-2006, 11:57 AM
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Now here is an interesting idea, "respect". What do we mean by respect? I am judging from the context here that the idea of respect used here means "to leave alone, or to accept it myself." I apologize if this was not the intended idea. But that has never been my understanding of respect. It means we discuss each others ideas without insulting them. If my beliefs tell me that a person needs to me a certain qualification to reach heaven, then I am going to tell them that. It is up to them to believe it or not. Unfortunatly I have had many people tell me I need to "respect" their beliefs even though the don't respect mine the same way they want me to respect theirs. Does this make sense?

Now, back to the original idea. If you examine all the other religions (again the ones I am familiar with) they talk about being good. weather it is a spititual feeling (peace or self-belief) or physically (doing good things) I still have a question? How does a person decide what is good? How do they know? if the answer is, "they feel good about it" that is pretty ambiguous (sp?) How does a person decide what is bad? What if a totally deranged person thinks that by murdering a 6 year old girl he is doing her a favor, by setting her "free". Is that good or bad? He thinks it is good, will he go to his version of heaven for it? The family that the girl was a part of thinks it was bad, does he need to make up for it? Next is it fair if he goes to heaven because he thought he was doing a good thing but the family doesn't because they harbor resentment towards him and die before they get the chance to make it right?

According to my understanding the Bible is the only one that is fair, by applying the same standard to everybody. Romans 3:23 "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." . Then it applies the same standard to get to heaven for everyone. John 3:16 "For God so loved the World that he gave his one and only son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." emphasis mine. It is the same standard for everyone. God also makes no distinction between different sins: colossions 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

God makes no difference between murder and hatred. We may not like it but I think that is becausae we judge sin by our own standard and not God's.
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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 21-Aug-2006, 02:33 PM
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I disagree that the bible is clear cut and fair.

For instance, the quotes of yours about he who has sinned and whomever believes in God and his sun get to go to heaven are contridictory. Does this mean that if I sin I'm screwed, or does it mean that I can sin, but only so long as I believe in God?

It also doesn't really make it clear if any of the sins are forgivable or not. I'm just going by what you've said mind. The bible might have answers for these questions somewhere in it.

Also, drunkenness? revelings? So if I have a party, I'm going to hell; even if drinking isn't involved? And uncleanness...is this defined in the bible? How clean does one have to be to avoid uncleanness?

Besides disagreeing with the evidence you've presented that the Bible is the only fair description of what it takes to get into heaven, I doubt your research into other religions. Buddhism, for example, sets up a clear set of rules for reaching nirvanah, just as the bible sets up rules for reaching heaven. I have not looked into all the religions of the world, but there is at least one, and I suspect many more, examples of religions OTHER than the bible setting up rules on how to lead a GOOD life.

I also think you are wrong when you say that the idea is respect means ignorance. I think respect means accepting that other people disagree with you and that their opinions are just as valid as your own. I'm not saying you specificially, I'm usuing you in a general way here. So, preaching Christianity to a Buddhist and telling them that they are wrong to believe what they do is not respectful in this instance. Sharing ideas of the two religions would be. I think people tend to say respect other religions by leaving them be because people have a hard time respecting religions in any other way.

And besides...putting your faith in the bible is simply another subjective acceptance of what is Good vs Bad. It is accepting what the bible labels as good and bad. There is nothing to say the bible is any more accuarate in its description of good and bad than anything or anyone elses.


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Antwn 
Posted: 22-Aug-2006, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (CelticCoalition @ 21-Aug-2006, 02:33 PM)
I also think you are wrong when you say that the idea is respect means ignorance.  I think respect means accepting that other people disagree with you and that their opinions are just as valid as your own. 


I agree with many of Celtic's points about Christianity. However I don't believe anyone HAS to respect anyone's religion at all. I can have no respect whatsoever for a particular religion but still feel an empathic connection to the believer's search for some sort of meaning or experience of something they would consider divine or transcendent. I can relate to the quest and feel compassion for the individual while disrespecting their conclusions or methodology entirely. If a person tells me they believe the world is secretly controlled by pink elephants that only he can see, I'm likely not to have much respect for that point of view, and believe me I'm just as incredulous about some religions.

I'm talking general observations here, not about anyone specifically, because I hear this alot.....the fact that one disagrees is a statement of belief in the invalidity of the point of view offered isn't it, in other words, falsely based or reasoned to the disagreer's mind, no matter how we're expected to kowtow in the Land of Nice and pretend we're not saying what we're saying? While its not necessary to be rude, civility also doesn't necessitate mendacity or pretense either. Some defend their beliefs with a vehemence which clearly demonstrates they don't really believe in equal validity for the other's opinion at all. Perhaps what people consider disrespect is just disagreement plus passion. Yet often the demand from others to respect their point of view becomes a coercive manipulative ploy, a demand that you fulfill their need for agreement even if you're expected to compromise your integrity and the honesty of your true point of view to accommodate such an insecurity.

I realize its a popular politically correct point of view, but I don't think anyone has the right to demand anyone's respect for their beliefs, nor will they truly get it if they do. Acquiescence is not necessarily respect nor is equivocation. Common courtesy doesn't necessitate disingenuous stances either. Personally I'd prefer the honesty and integrity of a person's point of view courteously presented to their respect for mine and and I don't think respect for me necessitates respect for my beliefs.
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