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> What If We Are Wrong?, Enter if you dare but don't be offended
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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 26-Mar-2006, 10:02 PM
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connor1985 
Posted: 27-Mar-2006, 10:31 PM
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something that just came to mind...

if we were to follow the christian belief (no i'm not bashing or nothing just explaining) then people who live their life in a good manner no matter what they might do (i'll just say buddist because you never hear anything bad about them) they will burn in hell forever just because they didn't accept christ into themselves. to me if there is a just god he wouldn't allow that to happen just because they follow something different and live their lives in a "holy" manner that shouldn't hold them out of whatever awaits in the end. we should be judged by what we have done with our lives not what we believe. now don't get me wrong i kind of like that whole forgiveness thing but it really censored.gif me off that a person could do something outrageous (example tim mcvay) and right before they die they find forgiveness and really mean it they would be allowed into "heaven" with saints. just think mass murders with saints. frusty.gif furious.gif

who knows who or what is right but i think that our actions speak louder then our words will ever reach. and a thing that really bothers me is that in america we are to have a right to and religion but because there is a large group of christians it seems they decide what can and can not be worshiped. for example where i live there are two christian stores but anytime a group comes in and offers something different (think something like spencers) they form a coalition and try to get it shut down. why is it ok for that to happen but not for all those other groups to try and shut down some of the churches around town? i don't know the count for sure but i think our small town has over 12 different churches!!! jawdrop.gif (that and we have almost as many bars as churches cheers.gif ) if it is our god given right to worship whoever we want then there should be a law that protects that. it's not until something extreme happens that anyone really worries about other religions (like 9/11) but when it does there is an outcry to ban it from america which is completely wrong!

like i said who knows but my mind keeps skipping around but here's a little more for everyone to think about. hope to hear from ya'll soon.

until then may peace be with you bye1.gif


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Antwn 
Posted: 28-Mar-2006, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE (WizardofOwls @ 26-Mar-2006, 06:04 AM)
If we are wrong, then I, as a Christian, have lived a life that I can be proud of. I have done my best to be a person that helps others, and have tried to do good to those around me. By those standards, if we are wrong then I think I should do well in whatever is yet to come.

Eternity is a LONG time!

A wonderful sentiment Wizard. Yes you should do well even if there's no judgement at all wink.gif because you're at peace with yourself and your choices.

Actually eternity may have nothing to do with time, it can even be seen as a moment which is always present - without containing linear past, present and future which are definitions of time. So eternity may not be any time at all.


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Antwn 
Posted: 28-Mar-2006, 07:21 PM
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If Truth by definition is self evident by virtue of its truth, then shouldn't it be non-debatable? Doesn't it follow then to question the veracity of that which is debatable?
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Siobhan Blues 
Posted: 29-Mar-2006, 11:32 AM
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QUOTE (connor1985 @ 22-Mar-2006, 07:58 PM)
i guess i am drifting right now because i know some of the answers but not all of them and i seek to find. a big problem i thought of recently is that the current churches whatever you go to came from one original group and was just split by years and years due to many factors. i know it says the original text was copied but there are so many different types of bibles out there how can we be sure they are still right? if there is indeed only one god then we made IT out to be many even though we come from the same group....

Oh honey, what a complex thing you're delving into...

I've been there too. Read up on all the major religions, wondered if Christianity really is the only way or if somebody else has a clue too... the search for answers was unnerving but the most worthwhile journey I have ever undertaken.

Let me tell you briefly what I discovered: beyond all religions, all denominations, all concepts and theories there is this truth:
All around us is a marvelous, rich world. We are amazing, complex creations ourselves - each unique and vital and precious. We were created - we are loved by our Creator. We seek interaction with our Creator and He is waiting for nothing more than for us to take that first step! And sure the Bible has been around a long time, but if you search its pages it will stir in YOUR heart a personal realization that its the key to everything. It's radical, its comprehensive, its dramatic and its life-changing. And it's got the answer to every single question.

All religions and theories are attempts to make some sense of this world. All religions & religious texts and denominations are reactions to the initial way mankind perceived the world. Most religions today will teach you that if there is a higher power, it is unreachable or unattainable or something you can reach only by countless rebirths until you are good enough or follow the rules perfectly. Perfection isn't within our means and as a result we feel guilt, insecurity, lost...

There is one core truth way down deep below all these concepts of men: God the creator. You'll find him at the heart of many beliefs (except those who arrogantly dismiss His existence because they can't fully comprehend Him). But few belief systems offer a direct access to Him like Christianity does. The historical person of Jesus Christ is the single one who taught grace - believe in me, he said, and you'll find peace. Look at me, he said, and you're looking at what God is like. I am here to show you what God is like, what He wants, and how much He loves you. Choose to believe I am who I say I am, and God himself will sweep you off your feet.

We all have the choice to believe or not. By nature I am doubtful and insecure, but the more I learned about Jesus the more intrigued I became. A friend of mine once said Jesus is too good to be true and he rejected Jesus because of that... but I chose to accept what appeared too good to be true, and I've been propelled into a personal relationship with the Creator! Jesus really was God on earth; he really did come here, live, teach, suffer murder - AND return from the dead. Because of what Jesus did, we can know God face to face - IF WE CHOOSE TO BELIEVE. Jesus's teachings are in the New Testament part of the Bible.

I too have felt constricted by "the church", and that's because the church wants us to follow its rules. But if you seek Christ, seek Jesus, seek the Creator thru the pages of the Bible and the evidence of Him in natural world around us! That's where the joy is!


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The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king..."
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Raven 
Posted: 29-Mar-2006, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (connor1985 @ 22-Mar-2006, 07:58 PM)
i know it says the original text was copied but there are so many different types of bibles out there how can we be sure they are still right?

hey Conner

Just a point of clarification.

Even though the various translations of the Bible are refered to as versions, they are actually translations and come from 2 bodies of texts in the original languages (speaking of New Testament) that vary to insignificant degrees. (i.e. they say the same thing and do not disagree) The Old Testament translated come from the same body of text.

That said, If I am wrong about God and me being a Christian.... I would not do anything different. Eternity might not exist as I think it will be but I would not have lived my life any differently. It is no burden.

Interesting arguement for Truth Antwn. I would suggest that just because something is true does not mean that everyone will agree that it is true for the following reasons.

A. they don't have enough information to begin with - resulting in debate

2. they don't really care about the truth if it is different from what they want it to be - and they like to argue on top of that - again a debate of the truth.

C. They don't believe that there is such a thing as truth apart from the individuals perception of it. No Absolutes. If I have a battleship dropped on me it will not necesarily crush me sort of thing. One more arguement.

4. they start with a predetermined opinion and are not open to new information - actually a variation of some of the previous, yet different. smile.gif

Peace

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Antwn 
Posted: 29-Mar-2006, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (Raven @ 29-Mar-2006, 03:17 PM)
Interesting arguement for Truth Antwn. I would suggest that just because something is true does not mean that everyone will agree that it is true for the following reasons.


Actually Raven I don't think Truth is conceptual at all.
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connor1985 
Posted: 29-Mar-2006, 10:29 PM
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while something may hold true for that doesn't mean it holds true for everyone. some truths could be called absolute but i think for the most part it all depends on our own point of view of life and the way we view the world. i'm not really going to talk about that to much it makes my head hurt thinking of things that may or may not be true to everyone.

however i would like to ask this question. what about periods where the church as a group killed thousands of innocent people because the pope told them to? can we be held responsible if you follow your religious leader and are only doing what he says god has told him to do? makes you wonder because if so then many of our ancestors who "took up the cross" and partook of the crusades are most likely in hell. again like i said the pope declared that the holy land needed to be claimed for god and that killing muslims (infidel) was not murder and that by doing so you could earn your right into heaven. sorry but isn't that against everything the bible tells us? we really can't earn our way into heaven that's way jesus has to come down and do all he did other wise we would still be killing sheep and lambs to earn forgiveness. in every religion you have those who will follow it blindly even if they really knew it was wrong they can't go against the figurehead of the time and evil things can come from it.

now its part of our history that we fought the crusades for many many years but again the pope told us to and we only did what we were told. however now that we have other religions killing us its all of a sudden wrong and they should be punished. what's the difference? bash.gif there is really no difference but because it's not us and our god didn't tell us to do it's wrong for these other groups to kill.

just giving everyone a little more stuff to think about i'm sure i'm not really well liked since i started this but i felt i had to. again i ask you don't become offended for i am only one person asking the question that weighs on his heart. i hope up all will continue to post here i enjoy hearing other peoples thoughts (even if i don't like we are all entitled to what we think) and the debates are what really get me going. anyway please feel free to post your thoughts and talk about what you really think.

peace be with you cheers.gif
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Nightchild 
Posted: 30-Mar-2006, 05:28 AM
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QUOTE
Let me tell you briefly what I discovered: beyond all religions, all denominations, all concepts and theories there is this truth:
All around us is a marvelous, rich world. We are amazing, complex creations ourselves - each unique and vital and precious. We were created - we are loved by our Creator. We seek interaction with our Creator and He is waiting for nothing more than for us to take that first step! And sure the Bible has been around a long time, but if you search its pages it will stir in YOUR heart a personal realization that its the key to everything. It's radical, its comprehensive, its dramatic and its life-changing. And it's got the answer to every single question.


That's a truth I mostly could follow. I'd definitely go with the part of the rich world and the fact that there's someone (like a creator) that loves us. Yet when holding this as for a truth beyond religions you should take into account that this also might be a She. Not to offend, just to push thoughts. wink.gif

QUOTE
now its part of our history that we fought the crusades for many many years but again the pope told us to and we only did what we were told. however now that we have other religions killing us its all of a sudden wrong and they should be punished. what's the difference?  there is really no difference but because it's not us and our god didn't tell us to do it's wrong for these other groups to kill.


Never thought about it that way. But you're right. Completely. I'm amazed. smile.gif *thinking*


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Raven 
Posted: 30-Mar-2006, 10:18 AM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 29-Mar-2006, 08:40 PM)
QUOTE (Raven @ 29-Mar-2006, 03:17 PM)
Interesting arguement for Truth Antwn. I would suggest that just because something is true does not mean that everyone will agree that it is true for the following reasons.


Actually Raven I don't think Truth is conceptual at all.

I'm Sorry Antwn

I did not mean to infer that.

I was only showing that regardless how true something may be people will always debate it.

As far as absolute Truth Conner..... smile.gif
Humans need oxygen to to maintain corporeal existence true for all humans.

Chocolate makes humans break out in a rash - not true for all humans.

Unless you buy into exestentialism,(i.e. I think therefore I am, existence is only an illusion and only exists as I percieve it) you have to buy into the fact that there are absolute truths. Certain things are absolute and there is no way arround the truth of them whether we like it or not. Dwelling on what is not absolute will not change that fact either.

As far as what other people have done historically because a man told them to do it..... what does that have to do with the Bible. That is religeon not spirituality and not done in the spirit of truth. Many of those people who were killed historically by the church were killed for possesion or knowledge of the Bible. Or for failing to acknowledge a church as the supreme truth on earth, not just Muslims in the crusades. Not really much different than Jim Jones having people drink cool aid. The people that hung Jesus on the cross were church people (the Jewish religeous leaders)

My point is man doing something wrong is just what man does, it is not a reflection on what God wants or what the Bible says.

smile.gif Hope that didn't give you a headache smile.gif

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Aaediwen 
Posted: 30-Mar-2006, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE (Raven @ 30-Mar-2006, 10:18 AM)


My point is man doing something wrong is just what man does, it is not a reflection on what God wants or what the Bible says.


The problem is, although we like to believe (I include myself) that god would not make such a request. We can prove nothing with certainty on this subject. What is a whole nother topic on faith in itself. Does the evil of the 1100-1600's reflect poorly on God/Goddess? That depends on what you believe. But it does reflect very badly on the church. Perticularly, the Catholic church of that period carries a scar through which the fires of Hell still seethe. I am not qualified to say, but I can only hope that the modern incarnation of that church does not carry the vices of old. From what little I have seen, I will say there is at worst a great deal of promise that my hopes are true.

Now to say we're right or wrong on the subject of spiritualtiy and religon.... If we're wrong, then life continues and we who pass lose nothing and don't care about what happens anyway. Until then, belief in a higher power certainly seems to help an awful lot of people lead better lives. Simple 'nuff.


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Raven 
Posted: 31-Mar-2006, 04:05 PM
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I agree Aedi it reflects badly on the church organization. But the Bible did not tell them to go on the crusades.

The fact remains that people who were killed over the Bible were by and large killed by those who did not want them to follow or pocess Bibles or parts there of.

The ones that killed them were professing to be Christians. So it was mostly a case of the church killing Christians. Check out Foxes book of martyres.

Again to reiterate, it has not been the Bible ordering people to kill others but religeous institutions. That's my point it is.

BTW Aaedi don't you live near Lexington? Arminta and I are going to be there a week from tonight and we would love to meet you if you are close by.

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Aaediwen 
Posted: 31-Mar-2006, 06:40 PM
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I'm in the next town over, about 30 minutes away tops. I'd love to meet up with you while you're in town smile.gif PM details?
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Shadows 
Posted: 31-Mar-2006, 06:57 PM
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What the belief in an after life and the " will of the "church" " ( yes those are double qoutes ) gives mankind is a "hope" of something more...something to keep us inline, something to make sure we treat each other right...

Any religion that teaches hate, killing, jihad, crusade, or persicusion in any form is not of the diety or dieties they profess to believe in...

The bible is only one book of the ancients that shows us the ways to live ; it is the unwillingness on mans part to accept the messages provided and make these things secular and selfserving where the troubles begin....


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Posted: 01-Apr-2006, 08:44 PM
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Personally, I believe in one creator, but am not exactly sure who (in the various religions) it really is. This is a little hard for me to explain, but I feel that the ultimate creator (whether a God or Goddess or Multiple deities) doesn't mind what it is called. Most major religions (I am assuming here as I have not researched all of them) convey similar principles (like don't commit adultery...) and as long as you live your life by principles you believe are important, the creator is not that concerned in the specifics... Well, he/she is, but say you follow christain principles, but don't go to church yet you still believe in those beliefs...is the creator going to punish someone because they did not go to church and didn't do anything really wrong (barring small incidents that occur in every person's life)? I don't know, this may be really off topic, but that is all I have figured out so far..


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