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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 02-Mar-2006, 09:42 PM
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Just want to know everyones opinion. I say they are the biggest bias organization in the USA. I say DOWN WITH THEM!!!!!!!!!!!! Call me a fascits, I don't care. But they are the biggest bias and anti-Christian groupe in the nation.


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Dogshirt 
Posted: 02-Mar-2006, 10:39 PM
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You say "Anti-Christian" Like it's a BAD thing. I'm "Anti-Christian", I just don't persecute y'all for your beliefs.
But I DO feel that the ACLU needs to be reigned in. They have stuck their noses into FAR too many things that are no concern of theirs.


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 02-Mar-2006, 11:17 PM
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Not that you're not welcome, everyone is welcome at Gods table, but being a fellow Gorden, my sept is Atkins, why are you browsing in Kirk and Chaple? Just woundering is all.
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 02-Mar-2006, 11:41 PM
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Just browsing for forums that interest me.


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Elspeth 
Posted: 03-Mar-2006, 08:07 AM
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The high profile cases, which are the only ones I hear about, seem to be interested in protecting the world from Christianity.
I belive freedom of religion is one of our civil liberties too.

The problem is, and I this thread might just have to be moved out of K&C, but historically, America was founded as a series of Christian colonies. Maryland a safe place for Catholics, Pennsylvania a Quaker Colony, New England by the Puritans. Separation of Church and State, the Right to Assemble and Feedom of religion were all included by early lawmakers to guarentee everyone's freedom of Christian religion. I don't belive witchcraft was percieved as a protected religion. Nor do I think a Buddist, Hindu or Muslim would have received much protection under the Constutition.

So, the people of this country up until about WWII (as a guess) didn't have problems with the status quo. America was founded as a Christian country of different denominations.

Things have changed when our immigrant base changed.

So, though I don't like the ACLU in the cases I have been familiar with, there is a shift that had to be made when the melting pot started including ingredients of other religions.
I don't like it, but I don't have the right to promote Christianity in public settings any more than I want to see religions that go against my faith promoted.


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stoirmeil 
Posted: 03-Mar-2006, 09:54 AM
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QUOTE (Nova Scotian @ 02-Mar-2006, 11:17 PM)
Not that you're not welcome, everyone is welcome at Gods table, but being a fellow Gorden, my sept is Atkins, why are you browsing in Kirk and Chaple? Just woundering is all.

Speaking for myself, and I don't spend that much time in this forum either, the "ACLU" heading attracted my curiosity. I was wondering why it was a topic for Kirk and Chapel. smile.gif Now I understand, after reading Elspeth's explanation, and I do sympathize for the feeling of encroachment that organization sometimes puts out. Dogshirt is right about that -- they do seem to overreach their purpose sometimes.
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John Clements 
Posted: 03-Mar-2006, 10:21 AM
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Frankly, I support the organizations like the ACLU, because they stand up for little guy, and as far as religion in general is concerned, I think they divide humanity.


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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 03-Mar-2006, 01:51 PM
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QUOTE (John Clements @ 03-Mar-2006, 10:21 AM)
Frankly, I support the organizations like the ACLU, because they stand up for little guy, and as far as religion in general is concerned, I think they divide humanity.

The ACLU is suppose to be for EVERYONE! However if you're discriminated against because you're a Christian, they could CARE LESS. Like I said before, they need to be reformed before they become the death to the USA. As for your comment that religion divides humanity? All I know if Christianity is followed correctly, it shouldn't divide. It just comes to show that man is imperfect. However I do know that there are a lot of Christians who think they ARE perfect and they are VERY wrong.
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 03-Mar-2006, 02:45 PM
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Christianity aside, my gripe with the ACLU stems from the case where they tried to force the Scouts to let homosexuals in as leaders. While I have no problems with the issue, I DO feel that as a PRIVATE organization the BSA has a right to set their own rules and standards. And as a result of that case they have lost a lot of their funding. A clear cut case of trying to force the country into THEIR idea of what ought to be. thumbdown.gif


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John Clements 
Posted: 03-Mar-2006, 04:15 PM
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If Iím mistaken about this, Iím sure youíll correct me, but didnít the ACLU just recently, either offer to, if not represent Rush Limbare, if thatís how you spell his name. I mean, this is an impartial organization that stands up for, CIVIL LIBERTIES! You canít get anymore American then that! But then I guess it comes down to ones definition of civil, doesnít it?

Not to get off the subject, but hey what the heck. Have you seen the front page of the NY Times today? ďBush and India Reach Pact That Allows Nuclear SalesĒ thatís great, more sails for us. Youíll have to excuse me, I need resuscitationÖ
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Elspeth 
Posted: 04-Mar-2006, 07:50 AM
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I agree with you Mr. Nova Scotian, it seems anymmore in our PC world that the only ones it is still fair game to diss are fat people, cats and Christians.

Rush Limbaugh is an ultra conservatist. That's not the same as representing Christians. Millions of Christians are very liberal. Jesus was as liberal in his ministry as they come, turned the world upsidedown so that it has never been the same. The Son of God will do that. If you define liberal as thinking outsde the box for the betterment of mankind.

What I find difficult with the ACLU, is the way they want to tear away centuries or decades of history to make us all 'equal'. Like we all want to be vanilla ice cream cones. And I'm not talking about good vanilla, but the bland, watered down Lawson's vanilla ice milk we grew up on because it was cheap.

In the community I grew up in, the ACLU got involved because the city seal had a cross in it. The city fought it and I lost track as to what exactly happened as it all drug out. Anyway... Again, America was founded as a Christian nation by Christain men and women. Obviously the forfathers of the City if Stow held their Christian belief to be a cornerstone of their, and their city's existence. So, in the seal it went.

Now, someone camplains, the ACLU gets involved, how many thousands of dollars is spent in legal fees.....

Look, I don't want someone teaching my children beliefs that I dont' hold with, but if I walked into a Pacific Northwest town founded by Native Americans would I demand the totem pole be removed because it infringed upon my 'civil liberties' for it to be there? It is part of the history of the place. What is a religious symbol to one can be historic art to another. (forgive me my transgressions in my knowledge of Native American beliefs, but take the point as meant)

I painted my front door as if it were stained glass. I included a cross because I am a Christian. The forefathers of Stow included a cross in their seal because they were Christian. It's an artistic display of beliefs of the people who founded the city. If it no longer represents the people of the city, then make a new seal, still displaying the old one as a symbol of the history of the town. Don't be forced by the ACLU to change the old one.

I am tired of what seems the mission of the ACLU to remove the influence of 200 years of American Christianity from our society. Christianity was a HUGE part of what made America into a democratic nation. Why does that all need to be denied in order to be 'fair'.

You may not be a Christian, not want to be a Christian, be offended by Christianity but it doesn't change the fact that though we never had ONE official state religion, up until the 1960's, America was, hands down, a Christian nation. Still might be if put to a ballot.

That is something the ACLU chooses to ignore.

And I keep imagining people calling up the conferderate flag business. That is different in that though the southern states were part of the Confederacy, the majority of the people living in many of those states were slaves and therefore did not see confederate flag as their flag for obvious reasons. In that case I can see the cause for debate.

In the case of Christianity, the vast majority of the people of America were Christians. It is who we were as a country, where we came from, where our roots lie.

I'm all for civil liberties, but I also think there should be some understanding and respect for our nation's roots. And our roots are in Christianity.

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Raven 
Posted: 04-Mar-2006, 01:39 PM
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You make some great points Elspeth.

Especially about how this country was founded with the idea of freedom of religeous expression.

It seems that during my lifetime there has been so much concern over equal time for minority that the good of the majority is oft times neglected.

The whole democratic process was set up to skew the process toward the wants and concerns of the majority while keeping them in check with the Constitutional Republice sytem. Hence our form of government Representative Constitutional Republic.

While the framers of the Constitution likely did not consider paganism a valid religeon, they non the less provided for it's protection. The shame as you pointed out is that the very people who founded this country would find that their words have been twisted to prevent the very expression that they sought initially.

Not allowing kids to pray in school, all they do is support one religeous expression over another. Just like with the minority issue. The ACLU in my book is the worsed offender and regardless of what they would have you believe they do have an agenda that is neither fair or balanced. Their record proves that.

The Rush Limbaugh thing (is certainly no good example of them not persecuting Christian faith) That is not the only thing they persecute either, I am well aware Dogshirt.

Christianity aside they are not there for the majority which by definition means that they are not there for most of us.

(steps off of soap box)

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Raven 
Posted: 04-Mar-2006, 01:46 PM
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One more thing. The constitution does not say that you can not have public Christian/(insert whatever name you want) prayer. The whole seperation of Church and state did not come from our constitution but the constitution of the USSR.

Our constitution says simply that the Government shall not establish a state religion.

A cross on a city seal, the 10 comandments on a courtroom wall or a child praying in school is certainly not something they were seaking to prevent.

I personally do not see why any of that should be an offense to anyone who does not believe in it anyway, else they should be offended by Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, everything they see on TV, etc......

If I see a Buddist, a Pagan, Agnostic, Athiest, what ever, I don't get all mad and offended nash my teeth....you get the idea.

People are often just like little children about this and the worst are frequently those in position of power.

(really done this time) smile.gif

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Elspeth 
Posted: 04-Mar-2006, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE (Raven @ 04-Mar-2006, 01:46 PM)

(really done this time) smile.gif

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John Clements 
Posted: 05-Mar-2006, 01:53 PM
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Just how much death and destruction in the name of all religions, is it going to take to see the light? Were mammals, we live, and then we die. Game over.
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