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> Prophecy, Any takers?
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Are earth events prophecy being fulfilled?
Yes, absolutely. [ 9 ]  [40.91%]
No, not at all. [ 4 ]  [18.18%]
Maybe, not sure. [ 5 ]  [22.73%]
Other. [ 4 ]  [18.18%]
Total Votes: 22
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Raven 
Posted on 19-Oct-2005, 02:48 PM
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Good post Red Drake

When I saw this post I immediatlly thougth of
Daniel and the statue of the vision of Nebucanezzer and how Daniel interpreted for Beltshazzesar the handwriting on the wall as the change of the kingdom predicted by the statue dream.

A prophecy so compelling that scholars until recently said that the book of Daniel had to be written after the events to have been so accurate. A stand that has been refuted by the discovery of the Quamram tablets (aka the Dead Sea Scrolls)

Are end time prophecies being full filled today? It certainly looks like this may be the case. But I would hesitate to stick my neck out on that one.

We have had a record amount of hurricanes this year with Wilma being the strongest ever recorded. I know that the frequency of earthquakes it reputed to have increased to unprecidented proportions. These could be cycles that these elements in nature go through and since accurate records of these type of events are relatively recent things (when you consider the age of the earth) it may or may not be a true indicator. I personally believe that a lot of the political factors are in place to fulfill end time prophecy. The only thing that I know for sure is that we are getting closer all the time wink.gif

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SCShamrock 
Posted on 19-Oct-2005, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE (Raven @ 19-Oct-2005, 02:48 PM)
 

When I saw this post I immediatlly thougth of 
Daniel and the statue of the vision of Nebucanezzer and how Daniel interpreted for Beltshazzesar the handwriting on the wall as the change of the kingdom predicted by the statue dream.
 

Are end time prophecies being full filled today?  It certainly looks like this may be the case.  But I would hesitate to stick my neck out on that one. 

Great point Mikel!!!

That story is an awesome example of the power of God to reach his people. I think that it amounts to a smack on the cheek saying "hey, I'm here, and I'm giving you all you need to know so as to be with me." But it's up to us, isn't it.

Here is a great explanation of that prophecy from Daniel.



Link to in depth explanation of Daniel's prophecy.



Also, since I first started this thread speaking of "signs" of the times, I would like to include some of the information from the previous link:




QUOTE
FREQUENCY OF MAJOR EARTHQUAKES

CENTURY
 

NUMBER
   
First  15
Second  11
Third  18
Fourth  14
Fifth  15
Sixth  13
Seventh  17
Eighth  35
Ninth  59
Tenth  32
Eleventh  53
Twelfth  84
Thirteenth  115
Fourteenth  137
Fifteenth  174
Sixteenth  253
Seventeenth  378
Eighteenth  640
Nineteenth  2119


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stoirmeil 
Posted on 20-Oct-2005, 10:06 AM
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What's the source of the earthquake frequency data?
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SCShamrock 
Posted on 20-Oct-2005, 10:24 AM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 20-Oct-2005, 10:06 AM)
What's the source of the earthquake frequency data?

My source is as indicated in the post. Where they got it I don't know.
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Antwn 
Posted on 22-Oct-2005, 11:51 AM
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According to the link provided, its the British Association for the Advancement of Science Stormeil, but I couldn't find anything on their site to verify it. Personally I'm kind of skeptical about the accuracy of data from the early centuries.





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SCShamrock 
Posted on 22-Oct-2005, 12:40 PM
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I am skeptical as well, but don't doubt the likelihood that it is accurate. Ancient Polynesian, Mayan, Greek, Egyptian, etc. texts and hieroglyphics record all sorts of natural, devastating disasters from floods, to plagues, to volcanoes. However, there isn't much ancient history about earthquakes and for that reason I feel they were very uncommon. How the aforementioned source may have arrived at their figures could be an estimated, regressive scale using what information we do have on earthquake history.

I would be very interested in learning for myself more about earthquake history if anyone can provide a link or two. I've looked and ran out of ideas. Thanks.
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Antwn 
Posted on 23-Oct-2005, 01:14 PM
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According to the USGS, you're right that earthquakes are very common... estimated to be over a million per year, yet that doesn't mean they're more common. Until recently humans had few resources to accurately measure earthquakes.

Simply because there's little ancient data doesn't mean earthquakes were less frequent. In geologic time, changes occur extremely slowly, I see no reason not to assume that earthquake consistency was no different then than now. Tectonic plates would have moved and shifted then as now. So the more important question is one of their detection, accuracy, and to what extent records survived through the centuries.

Many earthquakes occur in remote areas or in the oceans which would not have been recorded in ancient times. According to the following sites, the number of seismic stations to record them have increased from 350 in 1931 to over 8,000 now worldwide. That's just in the last 74 years. With this level of sophistication in location, it may seem like they're more frequent, yet that doesn't mean that they are. The whole question is academic since we'll never be able to go back to the first 5 centuries AD to determine earthquake frequency, yet that doesn't mean a reasonable hypothesis can't be extrapolated from what we know about geology.

According to the USGS, earthquakes of 7.0 or higher have been pretty consistent in frequency. My money's on the theory that they always have - throughout recorded history at the very least, and most likely much further into antiquity than that.

http://wwwneic.cr.usgs.gov/neis/eqlists/eqstats.html

http://wwwneic.cr.usgs.gov/neis/general/in...arthquakes.html


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SCShamrock 
Posted on 23-Oct-2005, 05:21 PM
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Antwn, thanks for the links.

Ok, I think you have established your opinion of earthquakes as they may pertain to bible prophecy. Now how about other bible prophecy. Where do you stand with the events and conditions that were prophesied about?
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stoirmeil 
Posted on 24-Oct-2005, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE (Antwn ap Ioan @ 23-Oct-2005, 01:14 PM)
Until recently humans had few resources to accurately measure earthquakes.

I just want to point out in the most general fashion that this kind of thing is true across the board in the sciences, and not just in geological studies. You always have to be careful about how phenomena are understood or interpreted, and whether people are even interested in objective mesurements of them (and why).

Then again -- human history is incredibly short compared to geological time. If there are great cycles of tectonic shift happening, or even if the progress is more linear, it is happening over much vaster time periods than the entire span of existence of our species (regardless of how we may prefer to interpret our species' derivation smile.gif ). The Himalayas are very young in earth time and they are still forming. This earthquake in Kashmir is directly attributable to that. The long fault line in Scotland (the "Great Glen") that resulted from the whole top half of Scotland coming in on a plate from further west had similar activity, but much, much longer ago. None of that has anything to do with human time -- it was all here and happening in its own patterns before we were ever dreamed of.

I'll have to bite the bullet on this one -- the earth has been around too long and its activity is too complex for us to presume to use it as a diagnostic tool for any human-based teleology. This is one of the main problems that causes so much controversy about signs and portents -- they are all centered around God's plan for man. I am not convinced that we are such a great big deal in the greater picture, and the greater picture would be in better shape in the here and now, on the superficial ecological levels we can and do affect, if we would stop being so self-centered as a species.
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SCShamrock 
Posted on 24-Oct-2005, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 24-Oct-2005, 10:47 AM)
  You always have to be careful about how phenomena are understood or interpreted, and whether people are even interested in objective mesurements of them (and why).

If there are great cycles of tectonic shift happening, or even if the progress is more linear, it is happening over much vaster time periods than the entire span of existence of our species (regardless of how we may prefer to interpret our species' derivation smile.gif ). 

I'll give you that Lynn, that you have to be careful how phenomenon are interpreted. The earthquake patterns in the here and now may well indicate to us, in our perspective of time at least, to either be random, consistent, declining, or increasing. When the prophecy about the end time was put forth, I believe it was a set of circumstances that when they occurred, would leave the "interpreter" with no doubts as to their genuineness. And while it is nice to hear you and others postulate over the age of our planet (sarcasm) or the history of earthquakes, you haven't adequately addressed the question of are we possibly living in those prophetic times we were warned about? There are other signs that the bible mentions. I don't have the time to look up chapter and verse, but I also don't doubt that there are those who can cite them for you at a moment's notice. The bible mentions our society in 2Tim Ch3, and tells of the social ills of the generation that would be in the "last days." However, the bible also mentions that 1) man's knowledge would increase {interpreted by many to indicate our advanced technology}, 2) that man would be running to and fro {meaning the speed and efficiency of travel}, and 3){this is a favorite of mine}, that the earth would wobble on its axis like a drunkard. Of course, those scientists that are so highly thought of to the atheist and agnostic, well they told us last year that the earthquake that caused the tsunami in December caused also the earth to wobble on its axis.

These are the kinds of things that, while they don't necessarily make me run screaming "the end is here", do make me think that I may be privy to a great revelation.
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stoirmeil 
Posted on 24-Oct-2005, 12:53 PM
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QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 24-Oct-2005, 12:03 PM)
And while it is nice to hear you and others postulate over the age of our planet (sarcasm) or the history of earthquakes, you haven't adequately addressed the question of are we possibly living in those prophetic times we were warned about? . . .


Of course, those scientists that are so highly thought of to the atheist and agnostic, well they told us last year that the earthquake that caused the tsunami in December caused also the earth to wobble on its axis.

These are the kinds of things that, while they don't necessarily make me run screaming "the end is here", do make me think that I may be privy to a great revelation.

As to the first point -- if you want to hear me say categorically yes or no, I'm going to be a disappointment to you, and I do sincerely regret that. What I am saying is that I doubt it, not because ample signs are not there for those who want to interpret them, but because I don't believe the whole show rests on how it may affect the human race. And I really don't believe the whole space-time continuum is going to change radically if we do manage to bring armageddon-like conditions on ourselves. We may well wipe ourself out, but as it is written:

"One generation goes, and another generation comes, but the earth abides forever.?
(Ecclesiastes 1:4)

And that is where my expectations lie, even though I know there is something about entropy in astrophysics that would seem to counter even that. The prophecies themselves, if prophecies they be (and I'm in no more of a position to categorically state they are false than you are to state they are true smile.gif ), may be warning something like what you think, but if they are I think it might be worth considering whether it's simply and grandly an announcement of God working through natural occurences as always. What I don't think is that it's an announcement of privilege and divine rescue of a fragment of the human population while the rest of the humans and the whole planet go down the drain.

I hope that addresses it more clearly.

The other comment makes me kind of sad. Science does not oppose metaphysics or claim superiority to it. It is just not addessing the same thing, unless you try to make it do so. If the tsunami was cause for or evidence of an axial wobble, then that's what it was. If that appears to concur with something in scripture, then fine. Was it specifically predicted? There have been others, and there will be more. Why this one? I think there may be an element of human need to see a resolution coming in the face of extremely uncomfortable uncertainty that would hope so.

Also -- not to be a tweaky pest, because I really recognize and have a great deal of respect for what faith accomplishes for humans -- why would the Bible say the earth will wobble on its axis? I mean, how did they know it has one? (That isn't in 2Tim3, by the way, though I must say the description of certain aspects of the modern human personality with its social flaws in 2Tim is pretty convincing -- but again, far from unique to our times.) Does the passage you refer to not say, for example, that the earth will reel like a drunk, or something? It can be a matter of translations being made to conform to expectations too.
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Raven 
Posted on 24-Oct-2005, 01:06 PM
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For what it's worth, the 19th century looked to be in line with the stats from the USGS

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SCShamrock 
Posted on 24-Oct-2005, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 24-Oct-2005, 12:53 PM)
1......I doubt it, not because ample signs are not there for those who want to interpret them, but because I don't believe the whole show rests on how it may affect the human race.  And I really don't believe the whole space-time continuum is going to change radically if we do manage to bring armageddon-like conditions on ourselves.  We may well wipe ourself out, but as it is written:

2."One generation goes, and another generation comes, but the earth abides forever.?
(Ecclesiastes 1:4)..........

3. ........The other comment makes me kind of sad.  Science does not oppose metaphysics or claim superiority to it.  It is just not addessing the same thing, unless you try to make it do so.  If the tsunami was cause for or evidence of an axial wobble, then that's what it was.  If that appears to concur with something in scripture, then fine.  Was it specifically predicted?  There have been others, and there will be more.  Why this one?  I think there may be an element of human need to see a resolution coming in the face of extremely uncomfortable uncertainty that would hope so.

Also -- not to be a tweaky pest, because I really recognize and have a great deal of respect for what faith accomplishes for humans -- why would the Bible say the earth will wobble on its axis?  I mean, how did they know it has one?  (That isn't in 2Tim3, by the way, though I must say the description of certain aspects of the modern human personality with its social flaws in 2Tim is pretty convincing -- but again, far from unique to our times.)  Does the passage you refer to not say, for example, that the earth will reel like a drunk, or something?  It can be a matter of translations being made to conform to expectations too.

1. Assuming, Lynn, that bible scripture is truly the inspired word of God, and all those red words are truly the words of Jesus, then of course these matters would be specific to the human race, for those are the ones to whom the message was given. I personally believe that there are others, on other planets, but that's an entirely different discussion.

2. I appreciate your sentiments here. Bible scripture is a funny thing. For years I thought that the story of Saul of Tarsus contained a blatant contradiction. In the scriptures it says that Saul, on the road to Damascus, was visited by (an angel), and that he was surrounded by a bright light and heard a voice. I will loosely paraphrase as I am still not able to get to my bible because of our upcoming move and the packing that has gone on here. In the scriptures it says that the men that were with Saul saw the light, but heard no one. In another, it says that the men didn't see who was talking to Saul, but hear the voice of him. I may have that all messed up, but the feel is just the same. It was a clear contradiction, and one which I could not get passed. But then I learned that the word "hear" did not necessarily mean the literal, audible sound perceived by the mind through the ear, but rather could mean to understand. With this in mind, let me say the in my understanding of "the earth being destroyed by fire", that it may not be a literal destruction of the physical mass of the planet. The bible does go on to say that there would be a "new earth." So interpretation again seems to be of critical importance here.

3. You and I might have drastically differing views of the sect of the science community to whom I am referring. That particular group, in my opinion, takes drastic steps and all-but-scientific leaps to refute even the possibility of creation rather than random chance. But further, I do think you are correct in your wording, specifically the word "drunkard." Since I don't have access at this moment, I will paraphrase: it says that the earth would "reel like a drunkard." You have heard my interpretation of that. I would entertain yours as well.

This post has been edited by SCShamrock on 24-Oct-2005, 08:56 PM
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Raven 
Posted on 24-Oct-2005, 07:35 PM
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In Reference to the also by Lynn.

i.e. Also--not to be a tweaky pest.....why would the Bible say the earth will wobble on its axis? I mean, how did they know it has one? .."

That's exactly the point, they would likely not know that as far as history would reveal of man's understanding of the earth. It was not determined until centuries later that the Earth revolved on an axis an that the sun did not revolve around it. To say that the earth would reel like a drunkard would be to put the prophecy in language that the writer had at his disposal. He would not know about the earth revolving on an axis, nor would he likely understand the concept and how this could possibly work without us being thrown into outer space(the heavens tongue.gif )

This sort of thing is what makes these prophecies so intriguing to me.

Mikel
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stoirmeil 
Posted on 25-Oct-2005, 10:05 AM
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QUOTE (Raven @ 24-Oct-2005, 07:35 PM)
That's exactly the point, they would likely not know that as far as history would reveal of man's understanding of the earth.

I do see the point as far as the revelatory implications would be concerned. What I'm really asking is whether some more recent translation is actually referring to "axis" per se. That would mean that the translator is making the connection and tweaking the message well after the fact of the prophecy. In fact, it would be hard to assume that biblical scholars over milennia have NOT edited or translated aspects of biblical text according to their theological understanding. Sometimes people lose sight of this, and will maintain a point that is an artifact of translation, editing, or period-specific interpretation.

I am not intending a specific refutation, and I have too much practical regard, as I said, for the supportive and restorative place of sacred writings in human life to even think of a put-down. But to use this example without getting too fixated on it, the earth "reeling like a drunkard" might refer to any severe earthquake.

Rob is correct of course in pointing out that there is an absolute divide (which I try to straddle mentally in discussions like this, out of respect, though it must be fairly clear which side I tend to stand on): there is either a specific revelatory message that puts human existence at the center and purpose of all existence, or there is not. I don't attempt to convince, because my view of the earth and its history is not flat and matter-of-fact at all. It strikes me constantly with wonder that leaves me quite speechless sometimes, as it would any person with a spiritual nature. And I would never consider trying to talk somebody out of that experience, no matter how they derive it.
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