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Siobhan Blues 
Posted: 27-Jul-2005, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE (bigjimhainey @ 19-Jul-2005, 11:19 PM)
Ok i dont know about the RAB but i do have a theory much along the lines everyone else expressed about snape. Why was he almost begging snape when he didnt beg from ANYONE.

I thought Dumbledore begged because he sincerely was afraid Snape was going to do him in - he'd been cutting Snape some slack all this time, but seeing Snape burst into the room with that expression on his face must have made D realize his faith in Snape had been misplaced and that Snape had indeed been evil all along!

Listen, I hope I'm wrong - somebody convince me...!!

sad Siobhan


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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 27-Jul-2005, 12:58 PM
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I sincerely doubt that he was begging through a fear of what Snape was going to do. He was, afterall, only moments earlier, ordering Harry to retreive Snape for him. No, I suspect that D knew what was happening. If he had been concerned for his safety, why did he freeze Harry?

No, D was much too clever to have been so caught unawares that he had no idea what was going on. The actions he took were much too calculated.

Why and what exactly happened on that tower remains to be seen. Is D truly dead? Is Snape still working for D, or is he back with Voldemort? I have no idea...nor do I really care to know until the last book is out.


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Meryat 
Posted: 27-Jul-2005, 01:02 PM
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Each time I reread that scene, my opinion changes. I originally thought Dumbledore was begging Snape because he didn't want Snape to blow his cover or didn't want Draco to commit his first murder. The next time I reread it, I thought he might have been asking Snape not to betray the Order by killing him -- I don't think Dumbledore was the sort to beg for his own life without some other reason.

Someone somewhere (if I could remember where, I'd give a link) pointed out that Dumbledore and Snape are both skilled in occlumency and legilimency and noted that they seemed to be looking at each other and could actually have exchanged information without the Death Eaters present being aware of it. I went back and reread the scene again, and I noticed that that did seem plausible. I also returned to my original thought that Dumbledore was asking Snape to kill him, not asking him not to do so.

If I'm remembering correctly, the expression on Snape's face was not mentioned until he was actually killing Dumbledore. (I could be mistaken, as I don't have my book with me at work.) The expression may have been due to the situation he was forced to be in or, if the notion of Dumbledore and Snape exchanging unspoken information would happen to be correct, due to the information that was exchanged.



And RAB? I came up with Regulus as well.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 27-Jul-2005, 01:32 PM
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What if Dumbledore wanted it to happen, and he and and Snape had it all understood beforehand? shocking.gif
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Sekhmet 
Posted: 27-Jul-2005, 07:36 PM
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I've read it three times already. Yeah. Three. I'm not addicted, NO.... tongue.gif

Now with that said, lemme read the rest of the thread. I haven't braved the fan sites yet, figuring the foaming at the mouth from the rabid fans hasn't subsided yet. Unfortunately, that also means I haven't anything to read till I get out on Friday...bummer.

I'll shut up and read the thread now. LOL


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Sekhmet 
Posted: 27-Jul-2005, 09:28 PM
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I'm of several minds about this book. I think the anticipation makes the reader expect huge things from each addition to the story, especially if they're of the type to read fan-fics and/or already have a notion of how *they* feel the storyline should progress. It's a trap a lot of people get into, and I'll freely admit that I'm one of them.

One, if you're a regular reader of said fan-fics, the Ginny/Harry Ron/Hermione relationships were speculated for years, and the confirmation of them are going to vindicate a lot of people, and make for much wailing and gnashing of teeth for others. LOL Personally, I thought that they were very, very obvious from a long way back. Now, whether I like them or not are another issue entirely. tongue.gif

The writer in me called who was going to bite it in this book awhile back too. Dumbledore was the obvious choice for several reasons, most of them having to do with making Harry have his biggest leg of support go out from under him, leaving him to have to, for the most part, go this war alone. Dumbledore I think, will be back as a personality in portraits (and chocolate frog cards, nice convenient and portable thing there), but as a very powerful wizard he had to be removed, else if Harry should fail, it would be plausible that he could put Voldemort down himself, and that kills the whole Harry as the legendary boy hero thing. Instead he will be available purely as a source of wisdom and temperance, and not firepower.

Now, the whole Snape conundrum.

It's entirely too convenient to baldly state this late in the game that Harry and the other kids were right all along, and Snape is a badbadbad person because he's got all the personability of a copperhead with hemmerhoids. Way too easy, and I hope that's not going to be the case here. Personally, I think Snape is a much more complex character than that. Snape is in a bad position, no matter how you look at things. He must keep his credibility with Voldemort (though not necessarily with the fellow Death Eaters) and with Dumbledore (though not necessarily with his colleagues and certainly not with his students), which puts him into a balancing act that's bound to fail sooner or later. As was mentioned earlier, and I agree, Snape has done *something* in the past to earn Dumbledore's implicit trust, over the protestations of a lot of people over the years. We still don't know what that is. *That* is a key piece that is necessary in order to make a decision one way or the other about his loyalties.

No doubt about it, things don't look good for him right now. Snape had to have known what making an unbreakable vow meant to everyone involved, and I don't believe it was solely to protect Draco or indulge Narcissa's hysteria. Something has to be going on that makes it acceptable to him to kill Dumbledore (for he knew what he was getting himself into)and rejoin active duty with the Death Eaters, at least for the time being. Keep in mind, he is under surveillance even more now, with Wormtail living with him and undoubtedly giving report. A dead double agent does neither side any good.

I have to say though...the book, while good fluff reading, fell well short of my expectations once it was done. I found myself re-reading it just to be sure I hadn't missed crucial details that might've changed my perception of the storyline as it is at the moment. After three readings, I'm where I was the first time around: kinda flat. That's depressing.
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Siobhan Blues 
Posted: 28-Jul-2005, 08:03 AM
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You guys are great - you've given me so much to consider here. You've convinced me! Re-reading the scene with Snape and Dumbledore makes me think y'all are right: there is more going here than meets the eye. Hmmmmm.....

Just to throw in my two cents worth, I enjoyed the book very very much as a whole, mainly because some things were explained & some loose ends were tired up to my satisfaction. You might say my expectations were met; I tried to avoid expecting this or that and just wanted to see what story the author wanted to tell. I found the book hard to put down, and found myself many times exclaiming outloud "Oh man!" or even laughing a bit. It didn't seem like fluff at all to me!

And I cried when Dumbledore and Snape had it out in the tower, and again at the funeral! I was genuinely sad at both the loss of D and at Snape's apparent turning back to the dark side. At first I really resented the book ending on such a sad note, but like my daughter pointed out this is a much more serious book than say the first one and she said having such a tragic thing happen leaves things open for a very dramatic last book.
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DesertRose 
Posted: 30-Jul-2005, 07:00 AM
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Oh gosh, shame on me! I have never read these books nor seen the movies I guess I had better get with it, eh? idiot.gif


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WizardofOwls 
Posted: 30-Jul-2005, 07:37 PM
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I have heard several people say, both here on other forums, that they were disappointed with this book, however I was not, and here is why. All of the other books have been pretty much one shot deals. The story was complete in and of itself. However I am looking at this book and the 7th as 2 parts of one book - a duology, if you will. If any of the previous books ended half-way through, you would have said that they fell flat too. This story was not - and could not be completed in one book. It takes two to tell.

That's my two cents worth, anyway! smile.gif


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Meryat 
Posted: 01-Aug-2005, 11:48 AM
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I've seen mentioned at least once how Snape knew what he was getting into when he made the unbreakable vow to Narcissa. When I was reading that scene, I actually wasn't certain whether Snape actually knew what was going on or whether he was trying to sneak additional information out of Narcissa and Bellatrix by pretending to already know what was going on. I'll have to go reread that part sometime when I'm at home. I also don't remember the wording of the vow, though I think it was rather protecting-Draco-centric. The wording -- as well as how much was before he agreed to make the vow and how much after -- might make his actions more or less comprehensible.

As far as the merits of the book go, I liked it more than any other volume in the series except perhaps the first, but the tones are so different, as are the lengths, that they are difficult to compare. I tend to read a fairly large amount of fan-fiction, which was part of what made the last book such a disappointment. I thought it frequently read like a poorly written fan-fiction. There were only a couple points in this one that seemed to do that -- the conversation with the minister concerning the recent developments, and to a greater degree, the sudden resolution of all the questions of Voldemort believing Snape's loyalty when Bellatrix asked him nearly all of the questions I've seen come up all at once. By the time I was a short way past that point, though, I completely understood the necessity of having those points explained quickly so that the true story-telling could begin. There were just enough clues to what was going on to keep me trying to figure things out and sometimes reaching conclusions before the character and just few enough or little enough information that I was kept guessing on some things for most of the book.
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Meryat 
Posted: 01-Aug-2005, 11:51 AM
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Oh, and as far as whether the book seemed complete or not, it seemed like a well done first of two halves. There is sufficient information about and suspense regarding the second half to make it eagerly anticipated but also sufficient closure to leave the reader satisfied and not half-maddened with not being able to start reading the next volume immediately.

I was actually quite impressed; that's not an easy balance to attain.
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Sonee 
Posted: 01-Aug-2005, 04:51 PM
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I'm gonna add my two cents to everyone else's!! (if it keeps up we may just be at a whole dollar before long!!!!LOL)

I agree with the sentiment that this was just part of a bigger story needing to be split between two volumes. I also believe that this book answered a lot more questions than it created, IMHO anyway!.


As has been stated in almost all the other books Dumbledore was the only wizard that Voldemort really feared. As such it was only a matter of time and opportunity before someone from LV's side did him in. That it was Snape who did DD in was rather inspired and brilliant on Rowlings part. It means that even those who thought it was rather flat and didn't hold up to the other books will feel compelled to get the final book as soon as possible if for no other reason that to find out which side Snape is really on. Plus, if it's as many suspect and Snape and DD planned this out then Harry really ISN'T alone. He will have an ally, albeit a reluctant one, who just happens to be on the inside. I am in agreement that DD knew something about Snape that hasn't been revealed to us yet. I think Harry's decision not to go back to school is rather significant and overlooked. I also believe that Hermione and Ron will refuse to go back in an effort to help him which will move the story in a whole new direction. I also don't think we have seen the last of Neville who has as much reason to hate the Death Eaters and LV as Harry does.

I must admit that I cried during the funeral scene just because I have become quite fond of DD and the fact that through everything Harry at least had one person of influence in whom he could trust. It will ultimately come down to LV and Harry. But what influence will Snape and the other's have on the outcome? The whole reason Harry broke up with Ginny was so that LV couldn't use her as a pawn to get at Harry. Hermione and Ron now fall into that catagory as well, what will this do to their friendship?

Rowling certainly gave us much to talk about and speculate on, didn't she?!


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Siobhan Blues 
Posted: 02-Aug-2005, 09:17 AM
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I think Harry will return to Hogwarts, and I too wonder if Neville will become a more prominent character in the last book.

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CelticCoalition 
Posted: 02-Aug-2005, 11:58 AM
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I agree that Neville will become more prominent. I also beleive that Harry will return to Hogwarts...perhaps to find the other Horcruxes. LV coudl have hid them there afterall.

I think it's important to realize that Harry doesn't necessarily have to be the one to kill LV. The prophecy doesn't say that. I don't recall the specific wording, but if I remember correctly, it amounts to one cannot survive while the other lives. Doesn't mean Harry's going to be the one killing LV, it just means they can't BOTH survive.
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Siobhan Blues 
Posted: 04-Aug-2005, 08:59 AM
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Good point, that IS what the prophecy says.
Who originally made the prophecy - wasn't it Trelawny?

I'm enjoying re-reading the 4th book now, and realized a funny thing the other day; since I've seen the movies, I have in mind 'visuals' of the characters, locations, etc. I automatically think of Richard Harris' Dumbledore! Gambon did a nice job this last film, but Harris was absolutely fabulous.

Siobhan
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