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> Croeso I Gymru, Mutations...and grammar!
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Siarls 
Posted: 24-May-2005, 06:41 AM
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USING YN AS A PREPOSITION

When you want to say in Cardiff[/], [i]in Wales etc., the yn causes a nasal mutation.

http://jade.ccccd.edu/grooms/trglmn.htm

It must also be noted, that yn itself also "mutates":
before NG/NGH = yng
before M/MH = ym

Therefore, in Cardiff[/b] becomes yng Nghaerdydd.

NOTE
There are a couple of notes to make. Firstly, this only happens when using [i]yn
as a preposition, not as a verb, adjective or adverb.

Secondly, we do not mutate place names that are not Welsh. For example, we would mutate a word like Rhufain ("Rome"), but only because it is a Welsh word. If there were no Welsh word for Rome, it would not be mutated.
Therefore, places like Tokyo, Moscow, Buenos Aires and California will not be mutated.
The yn will still mutate to ym before words beginning with M.

However, a few non-Welsh place names are selectively mutated, depending on the speaker. These do not have to be mutated, but sometimes are. Examples:
Canada, Paris, Mecsico and Brussels.


--------------------
Gwlad, gwlad, pleidiol wyf im gwlad
Tra mr yn fur
I'r bur hoff bau
O bydded ir heniaith barhau
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austaff 
Posted: 24-May-2005, 09:13 PM
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Thanks Siarls I have read all your pages in this thread I understand some of it however it is many years since I was in school and I must admit I am not up with tenses adjectives etc as grammar was not my strongest subject so I may seem rather slow.

With me I guess the best way and maybe the same for the rest is to show us where we have made the mistake when we make it when we write in welsh by re writing the sentence with the correct grammar and mutations that way we can see where we are going wrong and hopefully not make the same mistake again.

I think it is great that you take the time to help us with our welsh studies as we surely need a tutor to help with the welsh we are trying to learn via the web and its great to practice writing it here and to have you correct our grammar etc "so please dont leave until we are as fluent as yourself" smile.gif


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A fo ben bid bont
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Siarls 
Posted: 27-May-2005, 12:55 PM
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I enjoy tutoring... I take great pleasure in doing so (although I get 25 an hour here in Wales wink.gif)

I am a bit worried about tutoring over the Internet however, because I speak and scribble notes on paper as I tutor to show what I mean. I study languages at degree level and absolutely adore grammar, so I think I can be quite intense - tell me tone down if I'm going out of normality and into complicated-ville!!!

By the way, Gwenynen, I did a lot of research on soft mutations and according to this list of rules I have:
Rule 25. Greetings. Example, fechgyn a merched / ferched a bechgyn.

I did not know this myself and as you can see - there are A LOT of rules when it comes to soft mutation (the others are relatively easy though). Going over it in my head, I would not mutate in this context, but it is clearly proper Welsh. Showing that even a native can learn!
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gwenynen 
Posted: 27-May-2005, 01:16 PM
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'Greetings' --- ! What a simple rule! I know what you mean; there are rules that even native speakers don't know and can't explain both in English and Japanese.

I hope you'll be as intense as you wish! I want to learn Welsh really well. I'll never be fluent as a native speaker, of course. But I want to become as reasonably fluent as possible. I'm so thankful you are in this forum!


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Weithiau, mae'r ateb i'n problemau o dan ein trwynau, dim ond bod angen i ni gymryd cam yn l ac edrych eto. - Stuart Kerner
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Siarls 
Posted: 27-May-2005, 01:28 PM
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You can be as fluent as a native. I think the only thing getting in your way is of course your distance from Wales. Otherwise, you cannot dismiss your skills - fluency is perfectly achievable.
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gwenynen 
Posted: 27-May-2005, 05:09 PM
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Diolch, Siarls for giving me hope. smile.gif I'm getting used to reading and writing Welsh but as you say, being far not only from Wales but from any Welsh speakers or learners, my speaking lags far far behind.

By the way, who is Kylie?
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Siarls 
Posted: 27-May-2005, 05:59 PM
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Kylie Minogue. I'm a huge fan. And did you know her mother was born in Wales? That's right people - another huge contribution made to the music world, made by the Welsh smile.gif

Speaking will be difficult. Have you tried reading aloud or making up little speeches? I do this with my other languages. Force your children to listen to you!!
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gwenynen 
Posted: 28-May-2005, 12:40 AM
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I try reading aloud and making up dialogs, but maybe not enough. I need to be doing it more. Diolch for reminding me. Although if I tried to speak Welsh to my children, they'd run away!
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Siarls 
Posted: 28-May-2005, 05:09 PM
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What about your husband?!!! I'd like to hear you speak Welsh, actually. It's rare I get to hear foreigners speak Welsh. I have never heard an American accent in the Welsh language.

I've heard English people make random attempts. I have so often heard English people say, "Kumroo ambuth" when trying to say "Cymru am byth". I have heard people say "Sigh-mroo" (they think that the Cy in Cymru is pronounced like the cy in cyan!!!).

But these people don't speak Welsh to a level beyond random words! I doubt they have any interest at all - I feel patronised when people spew random Welsh words at me in a tangled form.

Oh, and this one guy said to me, "I can say red in Welsh". The Welsh word, as I'm sure you know, is coch, which should be spelt cch because it's a long O. However, the word this guy came out with is too rude to be written here, but imagine coch written with a ck at the end! He then laughed as did all his friends, thinking it was very clever. I was actually incredibly offended, so much so I swore back at him. I am very passionate when it comes to my language and country and I do not take kindly to people using my proud and ancient culture as a joke.
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gwenynen 
Posted: 28-May-2005, 06:10 PM
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My husband isn't interested in Welsh, I'm afraid. I don't have any typical American accent, I'm sure. I more likely have Japanese/American mixed up accent in my Welsh!

I know how you feel when people throw random Welsh at you. I've had the similar experience with Japanese. Though non of the people I encountered meant to ridicule me, I wasn't so delighted to have ill-pronounced Japanese words thrust to me.

I've struck up a deal with my second daughter who's learning Spanish; We'll speak to each other in the languages we are learning. Of course we won't understand each other but at least that will give us a chance to speak aloud to a person (instead of to a stuffed animal!) smile.gif

I do love your proud and ancient culture and language.
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Siarls 
Posted: 29-May-2005, 07:14 AM
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Thank you. I have a lot of respect for Japan, but could never try learning Japanese. I'd love to visit someday.

I assumed you'd have an American accent because you have been learning Welsh through English and I'm sure you have an American accent when speaking English! Do you have an accent when speaking Japanese? I'd love to hear a Japanese accent in Welsh - that would be so strange to me!!! My Italian friend has spoken some Japanese to me now and again. She finds Japanese really difficult.

I was going to go on and on about past experiences, but deleted it all because they all prove the same point - people don't express the respect to the Welsh Language that I feel it deserves.

To everyone:
I hope you're OK with some of my dialectal phrases. I am a very proud person who choses to speak the way I wish and my dialect is who I am and how I speak Welsh. I've done a mix and match of dialect and standard, but if there is anything you need clarity on.
Just to show you some of my main colloquialisms:
Sai'n Dw i ddim yn
Shwd Sut
Shwr Sicr
-adw -adwy, as in ofnadwy or dealladwy
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gwenynen 
Posted: 29-May-2005, 07:44 PM
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I definitely don't have an English accent! My English must be more American than England English simply because I'm in USA. And I must speak a lot like my husband whose English is very easy to understand without any accents.

Unfortunately I don't speak Japanese with any accent. I grew up near Tokyo where there isn't much dialects. There are some charming Japanese dialects. I love hearing them.

ACEN, I believe has a Japanese language course book taught by the medium of Welsh! I wonder if they sell many?
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gwenynen 
Posted: 30-May-2005, 11:31 AM
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I'm sure you'll find Japan a pleasant place to visit. Japanese are very polite and extremely obliging to Western visitors. There even is a Welsh society in Japan, and they teach Welsh classes using BBC Learn Welsh! I once watched a s4c documentary about a Welsh woman married to a Japanese man. Their wedding ceremony was performed in Welsh by a Welsh minister.
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Siarls 
Posted: 31-May-2005, 05:34 AM
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I have never seen any foreign language books through the medium of Welsh, although I have seen French- and Esperanto-Welsh dictionaries.

Which dictionaries do you use with Welsh?
I was in a Welsh book shop in Cardiff when I saw the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru - the most comprehensive dictionary I have ever seen in any language!!! It wasn't just one book, it was several. No English.
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gwenynen 
Posted: 31-May-2005, 08:02 AM
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I have two dictionaries (W-E and E-W.) One is by Heini Gruffudd I mentioned before which has been 'torri o'r neilltu o ganlyniad i'w ddefnydd aml.' smile.gif The other is Hippocrene Standard Dictionary. I like Griffudd's dic a lot because it has example sentences and pronunciation help. The only inconvenience is it has too few words (20,000.) That's why I bought the other one but it's not as good as Griffudd's. Could you ask Dr. Griffudd, if you have a chance, if he'd consider making a new dictionary in the same format but with twice as many words (on thinner paper to make it compact?)
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