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> Croeso I Gymru, Mutations...and grammar!
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Siarls 
Posted: 02-May-2005, 06:39 AM
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Hi. I saw the Croeso y gymru topic and was impressed that the mutation was correctly applied. smile.gif Although y means "the", and i means "to". Also, countries, especially Wales, always begin with a capital letter in Welsh, mutation or not. It's a little offensive to spell Cymru Chymru Gymru Nghymru without capitals. I have even seen these: CHymru NGhymru. (Welsh Alphabet: http://cy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yr_wyddor_Gymraeg )


Anyway, it got me thinking about mutations and it is a huge problem that learners have to overcome. Even the different dialects are aware of the correct usage of mutations and whatever the word, a mutation will always appear if it must - whether it's Standard Welsh, dialectal or borrowed from English.

Raise your concerns about treigladau mutations here! biggrin.gif
Or any other grammar point you need clarified. thumbs_up.gif


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Gwlad, gwlad, pleidiol wyf im gwlad
Tra mr yn fur
I'r bur hoff bau
O bydded ir heniaith barhau
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gwenynen 
Posted: 02-May-2005, 09:12 AM
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Siarls, you are so helpful! Llawer o ddiolch! But aren't there anyone else learning Welsh besides Susanna and me? I feel guilty for hogging Siarls all to myself! Please, other learners, join us!

Your offer to assist in the Welsh grammar is like offering a scrumptious dinner to a starved person! Since there is no Welsh speaker or learner at all in my town to ask questions, even the most basic thing befuddles me.

One of the zillion things that's so hard for me to get used to is 'possessive adjectives as pronoun objects of verb-nouns.' This is from 'Modern Welsh' by Gareth King. A sample sentence: 'Dw i am eu cynnwys nhw.' Do you have to use 'eu' to sound natural? And if the object isn't a pronoun, for example, Rhys, will the sentence read like this? 'Dw i am cynnwys Rhys.'


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Weithiau, mae'r ateb i'n problemau o dan ein trwynau, dim ond bod angen i ni gymryd cam yn l ac edrych eto. - Stuart Kerner
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Siarls 
Posted: 02-May-2005, 11:03 AM
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Pronouns are a bit awkward in Welsh. I'll give you the two lists and label them "Llenyddol" and "Llafar".

Llenyddol[b]
fy
dy
ei
ein
eich
eu

[b]Llafar[b]
fi
di
ef*/hi
ni
chi
nhw

*ef becomes [b]fe
when following a vowel

When writing in the highest register of formal Cymraeg Lenyddol, do not use the Llafar list AT ALL.
When writing formal letters, use the example you have given above, where the Llenyddol pronoun goes before the verb and the Llafar pronoun follows the verb..

HOWEVER, spoken Welsh will not use the Llenyddol list as it is too formal. Instead, we will place the pronoun in the same place as English.

Example: "I include Rhys" Dw i'n cynnwys Rhys
1. Wyf yn ei gynnwys
2. Dw i'n ei gynnwys ef
3. Fi'n cynnwys e(f)*
*when a word ends in f, Welsh speakers regularly do not pronounce the f. In the North, ef becomes o.
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gwenynen 
Posted: 02-May-2005, 09:48 PM
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Let me make sure I understand you.


Why is the first list called "Llenyddol"? I thought they were possesive pronouns.


I need to get used to using 2. form to be able to write in letters. If I only learned the spoken form 3., I'm afraid I won't be able to use 2. when required. Is it too formal to use 2. in a forum like this?


I don't think I need to worry about writing in the highest register of formal Welsh. smile.gif
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Siarls 
Posted: 03-May-2005, 06:23 AM
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I called it Llenyddol because although they are possessive pronouns, when acting as object pronouns, they are only done so in Literary Welsh and not in Spoken Welsh.

That is fine, please use the form of Welsh you find easiest. It is rather formal in Spoken Welsh, but not as odd as the highest register. People will think you're educated... but think you're wasting your breath on excess syllables!!!
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gwenynen 
Posted: 03-May-2005, 08:30 AM
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Diolch, Siarls. Now I know why I don't always see 'ei gynnwys ef' form in some dialogs at BBC Learn Welsh.

Another question (I've accumilated a lot!) What causes the soft mutation at the beggining of a sentence when you are addressing someone as in: "Blant, ..." "Fechgyn, ..." also in "Ddim ar y mynydd." - this is from Te yn y Grug.

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susieq76 
Posted: 03-May-2005, 09:44 AM
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Hey guys, I am moving this to the Celtic Language forum. Any topics on language should go there. Thanks! And thank you SO much for posting on this topic. The mutations have been a bit confusing to me, as well. I just tried looking at is as a way to pronounce the words more easily, as it gave the sentence better flow. But then, I know nothing of Welsh grammar, let alone English grammar, lol!


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"Alas for those who never sing and die with all their music left in them" - Oliver Wendell Holmes
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Siarls 
Posted: 03-May-2005, 05:02 PM
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I think we are the only people in the Wales forum at the moment. I hope it livens up - WALES IS GREAT! COME ON OVER!!

Generally, mutations are a way of making words easier to pronounce. In English and many other languages, pronunciation will change in certain situations to make the word easier said, but the spelling remains. The Celtic Languages have been pretty progressive in phonetics. Completely phonetic is the Welsh Language.
example of "assimilation", as an English mutation is called:
to have Welsh phonetics: tw haf
to have to Welsh phonetics tw haff tw
The English spelling remains the same - Welsh changes.

There are some grammatical points though.Let this sink in first.
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Siarls 
Posted: 04-May-2005, 08:34 AM
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Treigladau Trwynol Nasal Mutations

Nasal Mutations are not as important as Treigladau Meddal Soft Mutations and the only two places where you have to really remember to use them are after the pronoun fy and the preposition yn.
Good advice on how to pronounce these mutations is change the mutation's place. DO NOT do this in writing, but in speech, it will make it far easier to pronounce and help your Welsh accent.
Examples:
My car fy nghar, but pronounce it as fyng har
In Wales Yng Nghymru, but pronounce it as yng hymru
My father fy nhad, but pronounce it as fyn had
In Gorseinon (my town), yng Ngorseinon, but pronounce it as [i]yng Orseinon[/b]

Does this help?
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Siarls 
Posted: 04-May-2005, 08:49 AM
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QUOTE (gwenynen @ 03-May-2005, 09:30 AM)
Diolch, Siarls. Now I know why I don't always see 'ei gynnwys ef' form in some dialogs at BBC Learn Welsh.

Another question (I've accumilated a lot!)  What causes the soft mutation at the beggining of a sentence when you are addressing someone as in: "Blant, ..." "Fechgyn, ..." also in "Ddim ar y mynydd." - this is from Te yn y Grug.

As to your question on soft mutations, Gwenynen. I am not overly sure why this has been done. Soft mutations are a constant cause of pain for both natives and learners. I would have to see the context of these words - perhaps the sentence that follows.
Often, soft mutations are caused by words that should be there, but have been left out. This is difficult to explain, but put it this way: a lot of words are not considered necessary to understand a sentence, but the mutation MUST remain.

This is why when you say "I did not say", you say, Ddywedais i ddim. The word that is missing is Ni. As you can see, you don't need to say the Ni to understand the sentence, but the mutation is absolutely obligatory - spoken, colloquial, dialectal, literary, formal or standard Welsh - the mutation will ALWAYS be there.

Make sense?
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gwenynen 
Posted: 04-May-2005, 10:54 AM
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The full sentences are: "Wel blant, dych chi eisiau stori?"
"Sut mae fechgyn. Faint o'r gloch daethoch chi yma?"

I only wrote from my memory in my last post. I dug up my old lessons and found them.


It makes so much sense when you explain the second point that way. I only learned that you soft/aspirate mutate the first letter of the verb for an inflected, negative sentence.

Diolch.
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gwenynen 
Posted: 04-May-2005, 01:59 PM
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I finalley understood fully the logic behind the form I was asking you: "Dw i'n dy garu di." Thank you for patiently explaining it to me. This was one of the items I was avoiding to face because it was too confusing (including counting and years.) I feel as if my eyes were suddenly opened. I can see now!

Though I may sound a bit formal, I do want to use this form. It's a little sad to hear that the trends are to skip the possesive pronouns before the verb-nouns. I think it's so attractively Welsh.

Well this is only my impression. In any case, diolch yn fawr, Siarls. smile.gif
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susieq76 
Posted: 06-May-2005, 12:26 PM
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Hmmm....I am afraid I may need to get a bit more basic even than that to start with. I have learned words, and what to say, but they don't do a good job of teaching grammar in the books you pick up in stores. Would you be willing to post on grammar from the beginning, or is there a book either of you would recommend? Now that I am out of school, I can actually devote time to this (what a concept - time!).
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gwenynen 
Posted: 06-May-2005, 01:38 PM
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Susanna, the best way to start is not with the grammar but BBC Learn Welsh, I'd say. They have excellent programs for free. You can start from the scratch there and move onto more advanced level. After you've learned for a while, a time will come when you simply want to dig into the grammar to understand more. If you start from the grammar, you are likely to get discouraged. Best wishes! smile.gif
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Siarls 
Posted: 07-May-2005, 04:41 PM
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I was looking at Heini Gruffydd - his work is good.
Especially Talk Welsh which will give you the entire basis to spoken Welsh. Although written Welsh is a little neglected in this book.

I don't mind answering any questions you might have - just post them wherever and when and I'll get round to answering them! In here or new thread - you're the moderator, Susieg!!! smile.gif
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