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Lyra Luminara 
Posted: 17-Apr-2005, 04:42 PM
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Just wondering if anyone has any information on this clan....from what I've seen they were a pretty big clan. I'm quite interested with them because my last name, beard, is a variant spelling.


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MissDaisy 
Posted: 15-Oct-2005, 09:08 PM
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I would also like some info on this clan.
My Family name is Laird and according to the COSCA, we are a Sept of Baird.

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Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 
Posted: 17-Oct-2005, 07:40 AM
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A google search for "Clan Baird" should lead you to a good deal of information about Clan Baird.
For example,
QUOTE
The Bairds are an ancient Scottish line, prominent at different times in centres as far apart as Aberdeenshire Lanarkshire and Peeblesshire. They are first noted historically in the 12th century, when the name was spelt Bard or Barde, one of the first recorded members of the family being one Henry de Barde, who in 1178 witnessed a charter of lands in Stirling assigned to the Bishop hop of Glasgow by William the Lion.


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subhuman 
Posted: 31-Oct-2005, 11:04 PM
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Both Baird and Laird are definitely Scottish in origin, but varied in their locales. Both are more of a job description than a heriditary name- Baird translates to "bard" and Laird to "landowner."
For reference, see the text at this link: http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/names.htm

Miss Daisy, Lord Lyon does not, at this time recognize the Lairds as being associated with any particular clan. However the origin of the name is definitely Scottish- so you may look upon yourself as having equal claim to ALL clans.
However, don't be disappointed by my statements- it's well know that records weren't always accurately kept and that maintaining an accurate list of names is an ongoing task. Just because Laird isn't officially recognized today doesn't mean that it will never be recognized., If you can provide anything, however tenuous to show a connection,
you could possibly be responsible for paving the way for all Lairds!
Even without Lord Lyon's recognition of a name group in a clan, they can be admitted by the Chief of that Clan. In fact, if you look at Scottish law, anyone who claims allegience to a clan, be it by word, deed or wearing of clan colors (the tartan) is considered to be a member of that clan unless the cheif has specificly excluded them.
The problem with the Bairds is this: they don't currently have a clan chief that is recognized by the Scottish Peerage. I'm not sure where the precendence lies- would a Laird be considered a member because they cannot be excluded by a person who doesn't exist (the clan chief), or are they not officially a member since the chief doesn't exist and cannot therefore acept them into the clan????
All in all, it's probably a moot point- if the Bairds say that Lairds are welcome members, who cares about official recognition? The name is definitely Scottish, and if a clan says that you're a welcome member, then I would consider myself a member of that clan if I were in your position and official standing be damned! smile.gif


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MissDaisy 
Posted: 06-Nov-2005, 06:45 PM
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Thank you for your response Subhuman. I really appreciate it.

I was wondering if you would take a look at these two links for me and give me your opinion.
smile.gif


http://www.laird.org.uk/Laird/1888_Letter.htm

http://www.laird.org.uk/Laird/Arms.htm

Thanks for your time.
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subhuman 
Posted: 07-Nov-2005, 04:26 PM
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I did look at both links, and will gladly give my opinion. However bear in mind that what I'm writing is just that- my opinion, which in no way reflects an official stand of any group or organization. smile.gif

The first link does support what I read before and mentioned in the first post. The letter there mentions the origin of the Lairds being from the Count Hlawford in Saxons who was blown off course at sea and landed in Aberdour along with 4,000 retainers. This occurred around year 1010 or 1015- was Aberdour an older name or a Saxony term for what is now known as Aberdeen??? Anyway, it is mentioned that the locals referred to Hlawford as the Laird- or "lord of the manor." Being a title or description of a person it becomes difficult to say that there's only one origin of a name. How many other places in Scotland did someone or some family spend generations referred to as "The Laird" before they adapted it as a surname?
The responce from the College of Arms in London at the end of that link backs up what Electric Scotland has on their website- that there's no official record of a Laird coat of arms. As far as I know, they should be contacting Lord Lyon in Scotland instead of the English equivalent regarding a Scottish coat of arms- they might have better luck there. This could explain the comment at the end about "There is no such position, or anything like it, as a "commissioner in the National Heraldic Office""- it is possible that the first correspondence was with Lord Lyon, and possibly there was such a position in 1888. This is just a guess on my part, so I'm listing it as a possiblility.

On the second link, the persn seems to be making progress- it's a letter from Lyon Court, and shows a record of a Laird crest. The last paragraph of the letter from the Lyon Court is completely accurate under Scottish law. A crest is a personal item and in many cases is heriditary, just as often it is changed. Here's a link and a quote: http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/c...ilies_septs.htm

The article is from 2001 and shows the Lyon Court's position on crests: (paragraph 2 quoted)
QUOTE
It should first be recognised that a clan or family is a legally recognised group in Scotland, which has a corporate identity in the same way that a company, club or partnership has a corporate identity in law. A clan or family is a ''noble incorporation" because it has an officially recognised chief or head who being a nobleman of Scotland confers his noble status on the clan or family, thus making it a legally and statutorily recognised noble corporation often called "the Honourable Clan?" A name group, which does not have a chief, has no official position in the law of Scotland. The chiefs Seal of Arms, incorporated by the Lord Lyon's letters Patent, is the seal of the corporation, like a company seal, but only the chief is empowered by law to seal important documents on behalf of his clan. A clan as a noble incorporation is recognised as the chief?s heritable property - he owns it in law and is responsible for its administration and development.


I interpret this to mean two things: first, the seal of arms is referred to as the Chief's seal of arms. His, not the clan's seal of arms. Secondly, without a recognized chief who is a nobleman, it's not a clan- but rather classed as a "name group."

However I'll also stand by what I stated earlier- even if the Lairds are unable to gain official recognition separately they can consider themselves of any clan who accepts them.
Here's paragraph from the same link:
QUOTE
A chief was also entitled to add to his clan by the adoption of families or groups of families to membership of his clan, a good example being the "boll meal Frasers". Equally, a chief has and had the power to expel or exclude particular persons from membership of his clan and this included blood members of his family. It was his legal right to outlaw certain persons from his clan. This is accepted in the modern sense to mean that a chief is empowered to accept anyone he wishes to be a member of his clan or decree that his clan membership shall be limited to particular groups or names of people. All persons who bear the chief's surname are deemed to be members of his clan. Equally, it is generally accepted that someone who determines to offer their allegiance to the chief shall be recognised as a member of that clan unless the chief has decreed that he will not accept such a person's allegiance, Thus, if a person offers his allegiance to a particular chief by joining his clan society or by wearing his tartan, he can be deemed to have elected to join that particular clan and should be viewed as a member of that clan unless the chief particularly states that he or his name group are not to be allowed to join the clan.


This is why I'm questioning the official recognition of Lairds being part of the Bairds- the first sentence states that the Chief can add to his clan. The Lyon Court currently shows no chief of Clan Baird, so can they add to the clan? On the other hand, down lower it states that a person can join a clan at will unless the cheif has excluded them. With no cheif, they also can't be excluded!
I think the confusion stems from the difference between a clan and a name group. The two are often interchanged, and for most circumstances this is fine. However they are not the same thing under Scottish law, as can be seen by the above.
I will restate what I said before- in my opinion, if the Bairds accept the Lairds as "one of their own" I would consider them to be so. The name is definitely Scottish, so they're part of the same big family that all of us of Scots descent belong to! If an individual Laird can trace their origins to a particular region, they would be fully justified in contacting whatever clan was in that region at that time. I don't think that anyone would have a problem with this either. In my opinion, any clan that only accepts certain name(s) is being elitist, short-sighted and not sticking with the tradition of what clanship means!
I also wouldn't see a problem with a Laird society. There's nothing preventing the Lairds from forming such a group. I don't think that the main reason for people joining a recognized clan or calling themselves a member of it is in order to gain recognition of the Lyon Court.
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subhuman 
Posted: 07-Nov-2005, 04:47 PM
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One point I mentioned in my first post but forgot to reinforce in the second. Older records are lacking. Just because some exist from centuries past should not be interpreted to mean that all exist from centuries past. Controlled environments for preservation of paper is a relatively recent technology. If you also look at how many have been lost due to natural causes (decay or water damage) or fire we can conclude that few actually survive. An existing document should, in most cases, be looked upon as the exception isntead of the rule. For much of recorded history the Church was a keeper of records, and in many cases this saved them since churches are less likley to be torched compared to a Lord's manor, there are still many occasions where churches have been intentionally burned. Many times it was a more practical matter- how many familes fled when they were on the losing side of a battle? I know that if that were my situation, taking a copy of Great Grandpa's will would not be my highest priority! Here's another possibility:
QUOTE
The massacre, however, had meanwhile exercised a far-reaching effect upon the fortunes of the clan, many of whom, harried and driven from their lands, had been forced to assume other names, so that to the present hour there are many Browns and Blacks and Whites both in Cowal and elsewhere, who are of pure Lamont descent.

On the losing end of a fued with certain Campbells, the Lamonts mentioned above changed their name in order to escape alive. Under these circumstances they probably wouldn't want a single item on them that identified them as a Lamont instead of the name that they assumed.
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Baird Clan 
Posted: 02-Jan-2007, 10:14 PM
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Hey,
I belong to the Bairds on my mothers side. I can go back 3 generations of Bairds.
The oldest was Anna Baird, born Jan 1842 or 1843. Every one but her was born in the United States. I never could get past the states to trace. If you know what I can do let me know. Thanks Linda
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neo71665 
Posted: 13-Mar-2007, 11:27 PM
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I'm a Baird (beard) too to see there are more of us out there. We really need to find somebody that can claim to be our chief and get rolling.
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UlsterScotNutt 
Posted: 25-Feb-2008, 06:17 PM
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Hi,
This has been a very interesting thread. Subhuman, great info and I'm sure your time and consideration is greatly appreciated by more than just me.

The Bairds, Beards, Bard, etc, since names spelling many times was a "close counts" situation, are a very historic name in New England settlement and settlement and developement of this US of A. I will be staying at Bairds Tavern in Massachusetts this spring. It is a tavern dateing back to the mid 1700s and of signifcance in Massachusetts history and I am sure my ancestors raised a glass or 2 there. More info can be found in a book called "Taverns and Turnpikes of Blandford, 1733 - 1833" by Sumner Gilbert Wood. Another book is "Ulster Scots and Blandford Scouts" same author. These are antiquarian books of cultural significance. You could find them in libraries if your lucky. We have a InterLibrary Loan System in Connecticut and I was able to get them thru this service at my local town library.


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scotborn 
Posted: 02-Mar-2008, 03:19 PM
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I think it should be pointed out that the clan system is lng dead. What people consider a clan nowdays is nothing more than a social club for people who share a similer last name.


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gwenlee 
Posted: 03-Mar-2008, 09:11 AM
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QUOTE (scotborn @ 02-Mar-2008, 04:19 PM)
I think it should be pointed out that the clan system is lng dead. What people consider a clan nowdays is nothing more than a social club for people who share a similer last name.

True the old clan system is gone. But the "social club" is also a group of people interested in preserving history. I can't tell you how many solicitations I get from varies organization in Scotland that ask for donation to help maintain different historical sites. The big one being Culloden. History is very important and I am glad there are organizations on both sides of the pond that are intent on preserving history for future generations. And the powers to be seem to realize the great interest world wide people have in their Scottish root because the buzz is all about The Gathering of 2009.
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UlsterScotNutt 
Posted: 05-Mar-2008, 03:02 PM
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Clans in their original historical context in Scotland are long gone. We no longer pay homage to a chief, swear allegiance to the clan, gather for physical protection of self and property, war against others for dominance of power via land and goods. Tribal life of clans evolved into nations through forces in time. Time now gives us a new function of clan, a shadow of the past in dominance, because needs have changed. Society is not static. People will always need to be connected. What forms these connection take , who knows. Just look at the past 20 years of the internet. Clans exist, people make it so.

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