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Was Judge Geer right to remove Terry Schiavo's feeding tube.
yes. [ 17 ]  [44.74%]
no. [ 21 ]  [55.26%]
Total Votes: 38
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Shamalama 
Posted on 07-Apr-2005, 08:53 AM
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Why was Jack Kevorkian put in prison?

Yes, he acted in contrast to the letter of the law, but was what he did a crime?

Should his services been made available to Terri 10 years ago?


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bubba 
Posted on 07-Apr-2005, 10:04 AM
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Shama, the difference is in the Schiavo case it was removal of support whil in Kavorkians case it was injecting a lethal compound. Passive vs active.


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deckers 
Posted on 07-Apr-2005, 10:44 AM
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What most people haven't realized or commented on (not just here, but everywhere) is that Michael Schiavo is the legal guardian in this case. Whatever his motives were, the parents should not have been able to intervene. They could for all kinds of emotional reasons -- love for their daughter, etc. -- but legally, they had no right to.

And don't forget the politicians who sought to politicize the entire affair. The legal counsel for Senator Mel Martinez just resigned yesterday after it was revealed that he was the one who wrote the memo discussing how the Republicans could use this controversy to further their own ends.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...4-2005Apr6.htmlhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...4-2005Apr6.html


Just my two cents.


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Shamalama 
Posted on 11-Apr-2005, 01:20 PM
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QUOTE (bubba @ 07-Apr-2005, 10:04 AM)

Passive vs active.


This is one of the things I'm debating my reflection in the mirror about.

Certainly the removal of food was done to "allow" her to die (or finish off dying). It was the absolute removal of one of life's necessities. But what would the public say if she were put in an air-tight chamber and then have all the air removed? And, for the sake of arguement, you could remove the air from the chamber at any rate (over the course of 13 days, or all in an instant). Would that still be passive as opposed to Kevorkian's active acts?

And, Brother Deckers, I'm also debating myself on the "Michael Schiavo is the legal guardian" idea. In child abuse cases we have the parent as the legal guardian of the abused children, yet the courts step in because society is "speaking for those without a voice". One of the arguements about this case is "what did Terri really want?", seeing how there was no direct proof either way. Should the courts step in and "rescue" Terri? Personally I think Terri, today, has all the rescue she will ever want now that she's in heaven.

There's an article at Nebraska StatePaper.com that I think really sums it up: "More Losers Than Winners In Schiavo Case"

http://nebraska.statepaper.com/vnews/displ...8/42568f9585c0c

Shamalama says:
- Kevorkian should be out of jail
- The waters got so muddy so long ago in the Terri Schiavo case that we won't know for many years what the truth really was, and by then it will be too late to do anything about it. Today only Terri has any peace.
- Shamalama's living will and durable power of attorney will prevent this from happening to himself
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Shadows 
Posted on 11-Apr-2005, 03:27 PM
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I for one think this issue should be put to rest just like Terry!
It never should have been open to public debate, and the government should never have become involved!!! Rest In Peace Terry and this issue.

We all know what we need to do to prevent this from happening to us!

JUST DO IT!


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CoyoteMoon 
Posted on 11-Apr-2005, 04:04 PM
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Until one "walks a mile," one can't know what this is about. I watched my mother be dehydrated to death -- against docs & family's wishes -- & there wasn't anything peaceful about it! If our gov't can't stand up for those who are unable to protect themselves, then it's high time the voters vote them out as WE ARE the gov't. Should children who are abused by their parents be ignored since it's the parents' right? I think not. Passive torture is no excuse as I think a shot or even a pillow would've been more humane for my mother. Within 12 hrs, my mother's lids were sticking to her eyeballs, her skin became rough & chapped, her tongue stuck to the roof of her mouth & all she could do was moan in pain. Add to all this the terrible stench that accompanies kidney failure via dehydration & you might have an appropriate pix. A cheating spouse is not an appropriate legal guardian for anyone.

If this issue is not debated in a public forum, how else are each of us to learn to view from another perspective? Granted, our minds may not be changed but the key here is empathy. I WANT to understand how/why others feel the way they do, just as I feel it's important for others to understand why & how I came to my position, having walked that lousy mile. If the only thing that ever comes of this is for ALL sides (two sides are never half the story) to walk away saying, "I don't agree, but I understand how they got there," then we have come a long way toward a place of mutual respect, which could lead to a place where everyone feels that the greater good is served.

And now, Shadows, I will let Terri rest in peace. I will not, however, give up on the fight my mother would have wanted me to partake in (& will haunt my days if I do not).
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Shadows 
Posted on 11-Apr-2005, 04:53 PM
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I have laid to rest many a close relative and seen the suffering that they have endured... DEATH never was suposed to be pretty!

But to prolong that end due to the "feelings" of some is just not right, nor should it be... expecially if the government gets involved! It is a family thing and should remain so with the current laws leading the way... if you don't like it change it if you can.

Life does not just mean being kept alive by machine...it involves interaction and meaning. Who are we to stop the process when the creator makes the call to come home...

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Shamalama 
Posted on 12-Apr-2005, 09:42 AM
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"Life does not just mean being kept alive by machine." Says who? As long as it's you speaking for yourself or your loved ones, then I wholeheartedly agree.

But none of us can define life for another person or family. I cannot define what life is for your family, and thus determine when life support should or shoud not be removed from one of your loved ones.

Brother Shadows, you are correct in stating, "it is a family thing and should remain so with the current laws leading the way." The problem with Terri's case is that two halves of her family had different opinions. Therefore the government or the courts are required to step in and settle the issue. Settling an issue between parties is exactly what the courts were designed for, and the legislature is the body that sets the parameters that the courts must abide by. So the government is involved anytime there is a dispute, whether we like it or not. The husband is wanting one thing, and the family is wanting another, so some other party has to settle the dispute.

The circumstances surrounding Terri Schiavo's death raised profound questions about the sanctity of human life and societal responsibility toward the disabled that will resonate for years.

No matter what the "talking head doctors" on TV have been saying I have to believe that withholding food and water must be barbaric to the victim. And now we read Sister CoyoteMoon's testimony describing her mother's torture. There's got to be a better way. As it has been said before in this thread, we treat our pets better.

It was the media that caused this to be the circus that it became. This type of life or death issue happens every day - for whatever reason the media latched on Terri and her specific situation. If the media really "felt" for the issue then they would be televising the other thousand life or death decisions across the country.

Media analysts looked at all 31 evening news stories aired from Thursday, March 17, when the impending removal of Mrs. Schiavo?s feeding tube put her case back in the news, through Monday, March 21.

- 59% of the soundbites repudiated Congress for acting to permit Mrs. Schiavo?s parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, to bring their case to a federal court before their daughter starves to death.
- 60% of the soundbites (including reporter comments) presented Michael Schiavo?s case that Terry Schiavo should die, compared with just two-fifths offering the counter-arguments of her parents.
- Not a single story was devoted to a skeptical look at Schiavo and whether he was acting in his wife?s best interests, but all three networks ran stories rejecting Mr. and Mrs. Schindler?s view that their daughter could possibly be helped.
- ABC?s Dr. Tim Johnson summarized that "the conventional wisdom, by experts in this field, is that after five years in a persistent vegetative state, there is virtually no chance for recovery." NBC showed Dr. Robert Cranford, who has examined Mrs. Schiavo. He said that in spite of how she appears on videotape, "she?s as unconscious as someone who is dead." None of the broadcast network stories showed even one dissenting expert.
- For decades, the Rev. Jesse Jackson has been a magnet for media coverage. But on the day the Reverend arrived in Florida to put a Democratic face on the side of Terri Schiavo?s parents pleading for her life, he seemed to lose his powers of attraction. NBC partially featured Jackson, CBS gave Jackson only 22 words, and ABC was uncharacteristically quiet about Jackson.

The media had an agenda here, and they used Terri for their own purposes.
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Swanny 
Posted on 12-Apr-2005, 10:13 AM
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I'll warn you straight up than I'm passionate about this issue. My wife of 20 years died last weekend in large part because she demanded that her health care providers adhere to her wishes (she was a Jehovah's Witness, I am not). Her mother and siblings have "issues" with her beliefs which I have had to try to address. Had they had the opportunity to interfere they would have forced blood transfusions onto her in spite of her deeply held religious beliefs. Meanwhile, the Schiavo story has been the media's "baby" throughout my wife's illness and death.

I thank the devine Creator that Shiloh had made her wishes known to many people, in writing as well as in conversation. I also thank the Creator that she did not suffer Mrs. Schiavo's fate. Her death was quite sudden and irreversible, just as she would have preferred.

By biblical law as well as secular law, when Terri and Michael were married they became an entity indepent from their parents. By both biblical law and secular law, the decisions that needed to be made for Terri fell upon Michaels shoulders, regardless of his motives.

I agree that the media put the Schiavo case into the limelight, but it became a circus only because millions of well-intended people who as total strangers to the Schiavo family seem to think that they know Terri's wishes more intimately than did her husband. Mrs. Schiavo's health care decisions became Michaels business, and that of no one elses. Not my business and not your business.

Maybe it's time the allegedly "good people" of America started minding our own affairs, and leaving alone the affairs of others.

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stevenpd 
Posted on 12-Apr-2005, 01:35 PM
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I'm sorry for your loss, Swanny.

In all honesty, I was torn between the two sides of this issue. Constantly vasilating between the two sides. On one hand, I do believe that all life is sacred and should be protected at all times. On the other, allowing her to pass with a little bit of dignity. It is unfortunate that the issue become so convoluted because of the media attention. The emotionalism that was stirred up because of the media attention only prrovided a topic for discussion and left out the humanity.

I agree with our position that it is a family decision and not a matter for the courts. Michael Schiavo has/had the final diecision. The concept of marriage is the beginning of a new family. The Bible says that the man shall leave his family and cling to his wife. His wife leaves her family and clings to her husband. As part of the marriage ceramony, the bride is "given away", symbolic of the departure from her family.

Overall, the entire issue reeks of polticization of death and in so doing, everyone involved lost some diginity. The only good that can come out of this is the level of awareness that was raised because no one else wants to be a polical football.


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