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WizardofOwls 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 09:31 AM
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Madainn mhath Sonee!
Good morning Sonee!

Let me show you something.

Madainn mhath - Good morning
Latha math - Good day
Feasgar math - Good evening
Oidhche mhath - Good night

I'm sure you recall that most adjectives follow the noun they describe. But are you aware that Gaelic nouns, like most European languages, have genders? Latha and Feasgar (Day and Evening) are considered Masculine nouns, and Madainn and Oidhche (Night and Morning) are considered Feminine nouns!

So here is the rule:

Adjectives that describe masculine nouns undergo no change because of gender. Adjectives that describe feminine nouns are lenited (that means have an "h" added after the first letter).

Hence Latha MATH (masculine noun), but Madainn MHATH (feminine noun)!

In a bit more detail, here is what Lesson 4 has to say:

...an adjective must agree in ... gender with the noun it directly describes. This is called the attribute position. For nominative (basic) forms of nouns these are as follows :

Masculine singular (no change in adjective)
Gille mr - A big lad

Feminine singular (lenite adjective if possible) ?
Caileag mhr - A big girl

? All adjectives with initial consonant quality can be lenited except those beginning with l, n, r, sg, sm, sp or st. For example, caileag mhr, caileag bheag but caileag sgth.

Typically, both in English and in Gaelic, proper nouns like the names of languages should be capitalized.

And yes, you are right about ch. Most anytime you see it, it will be pronounced this way. The only exception - if it is followed by a d, like -chd. This is pronounced ch-k. This is diffcult to describe, much better to hear it. Make the hard ch sound and follow it immediately - no space in between with a hard k sound. You see this often.

The word for help is "cuideachadh."
"Thanks for your help" would be "Tapadh leat airson do chuideachaidh."

You will notice a slight change in spelling in the Gaelic word for help - it has been lenited (had an h added after the first letter) and slenderized (had an i added before the final consonant). It is lenited because some of the possessive adjectives (my, your (singualar), and his BUT NOT her your (plural) or their!) cause lenition when possible. It is slenderized because it follows the preposition "airson" and is thus in the Genitive case. I am not going to go into the Genitive case here since this is just for easy, conversational Gaelic. The Genitive case is a difficult concept to grasp and is the main reason why I am only an intermediate student for the time being and not an advanced one! wink.gif

Now, have I completely confused you? sad.gif I hope not!

This post has been edited by WizardofOwls on 08-Apr-2005, 09:39 AM


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Sln agus beannachd,
Allen R. Alderman

'S i Alba tr mo chridhe. 'S i Gidhlig cnan m' anama.
Scotland is the land of my heart. Gaelic is the language of my soul.
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Sonee 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 10:30 AM
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Madainn mhath, Allen! (can you please show me again your name in Gighlig?)

You didn't confuse me at all! I just finished listening to the sound files about vowels. Now THAT is confusing!! You actually made it make some sense!!

Tapadh leat airson do chuideachaidh, Allen!! (how would you pronounce 'airson do chuideachaidh'?) I think I know but want confirmation!

BTW: Caimar a tha thu an diugh? (don't want to forget what I 'already' know!!)

I know this won't be right but you should get the drift, and then you can tell me how to do it right! biggrin.gif

Tappadh leat do sin leasan Gighlig! (don't know the correct way to say 'for that' Was I at least close?)


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"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" Edmund Burke

"If there's a book you really want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." ~Toni Morrison
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WizardofOwls 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 12:21 PM
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Hi Sonee! I'm afraid I owe you an apology! In my last post I said that chuideachaidh was slenderized because it was in the Genitive case. I was wrong, it is in the Dative case. Sorry about that!

Sgrobh thu:
You wrote:
Madainn mhath, Allen! (can you please show me again your name in Gighlig?)

'S mise Ailean! I am Allen! smile.gif

Sgrobh thu:
(how would you pronounce 'airson do chuideachaidh'?) I think I know but want confirmation!

I would pronounce it:
er-SON do CHOO-chu-chwee (pronounce that first and last ch like loch, the middle one as ch in church

Airson is one of the exceptions to the "emphasize first syllable" rule, because it is actually a contraction of the words "air son" and the emphasis just naturally falls on SON.

BTW: Caimar a tha thu an diugh? (don't want to forget what I 'already' know!!)

Tha mi gu math, tapadh leat! Agus, ciamar a tha thu fhin?
I am well thanks! And how are you?

Tappadh leat do sin leasan Gighlig! (don't know the correct way to say 'for that' Was I at least close?)

I would say
Tapadh leat airson an leasan Gidhlig sin. Thank you for that Gaelic lesson.

This post has been edited by WizardofOwls on 08-Apr-2005, 09:05 PM
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Faileas 
  Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE (WizardofOwls @ 08-Apr-2005, 05:21 PM)
Hi Sonee! I'm afraid I owe you an apology! In my last post I said that chuideachaidh was slenderized because it was in the Genitive case. I was wrong, it is in the Dative case. Sorry about that!

Sgrobh thu:
You wrote:
Madainn mhath, Allen! (can you please show me again your name in Gighlig?)

'S mise Ailean! I am Allen! smile.gif

Sgrobh thu:
(how would you pronounce 'airson do chuideachaidh'?) I think I know but want confirmation!

I would pronounce it:
er-SON do CHOO-chu-chwee (pronounce that first and last ch like loch, the middle one as ch in church

Airson is one of the exceptions to the "emphasize first syllable" rule, because it is actually a contraction of the words "air son" and the emphasis just naturally falls on SON.

BTW: Caimar a tha thu an diugh? (don't want to forget what I 'already' know!!)

Tha mi gu math, tapadh leat! Agus, ciamar a tha thu fhin?
I am well thanks! And how are you?

Tappadh leat do sin leasan Gighlig! (don't know the correct way to say 'for that' Was I at least close?)

I would say
Tapadh leat airson an leasan sin. Thank you for that lesson.

I pronounce "chuideachadh" "chodjochoo" with both chs pronounced like in "loch" and the ooh- sound very short, close to the sound that some people make when they see something disgusting ... ( wink.gif )but probably other dialects do otherwise, hehe. Nae mind, ye wont go wrong with this one smile.gif .

All the other things are completely okay. biggrin.gif


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Scottish in Heart :-))

In the darkest heart the pride of man will walk allone

's ged tha mi fada bhuat cha dhealaich sinn a chaoidh

Darkover RPG
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Sonee 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 01:07 PM
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Hallo Ailean!
Hello Allen

Tha mi fuar! Tha i goathach uabhasach an diugh!
I am cold! It is terribly windy today!

I am going to attempt something, try not to laugh!!

I bha snok an-de a-muigh agus tha i uamhasach an-diugh!

I'm not sure if that was the correct 'was' for the sentance I was writing! When you pick yourself up from laughing so hard please correct it for me!

Tappadh leat! biggrin.gif
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WizardofOwls 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 01:09 PM
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QUOTE (Sonee @ 08-Apr-2005, 09:06 AM)
Allen, there are exceptions to every rule but can it be said that most 'ch' sounds should be pronounced like loch or bach? ie: Tsioraidh an-drsta?


Hallo a-rithist Sonee!
Hello again, Sonee!

I missed a little something in the above quote! When you were talking about "ch", you were talking about the pronunciation I attempted to give for Tsioraidh an-drsta weren't you? Well, in my attempted pronunciations its difficult for me to distinguish for you when I mean CH as in loch or Bach and ch as in church! In the above I meant ch as in church. Tsioraidh is just an attempt to "Gaelicize" the English slang word Cheerio!

How about this... When I attempt to show you how to pronounce something, if I mean CH as in loch or Bach I will capitalize it as I have done here. If I mean ch as in church I'll leave it in lower case. Make sense?
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Sonee 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 01:35 PM
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QUOTE (WizardofOwls @ 08-Apr-2005, 01:09 PM)

How about this... When I attempt to show you how to pronounce something, if I mean CH as in loch or Bach I will capitalize it as I have done here. If I mean ch as in church I'll leave it in lower case. Make sense?

Yep!! Makes perfect sense to me!
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WizardofOwls 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (Sonee @ 08-Apr-2005, 01:07 PM)
Hallo Ailean!
Hello Allen

Tha mi fuar! Tha i goathach uabhasach an diugh!
I am cold! It is terribly windy today!

I am going to attempt something, try not to laugh!!

I bha snok an-de a-muigh agus tha i uamhasach an-diugh!

I'm not sure if that was the correct 'was' for the sentance I was writing! When you pick yourself up from laughing so hard please correct it for me!

Tappadh leat! biggrin.gif

Hallo a ghridh!
Hello dear!

I would never laugh at you for making a mistake! You are just learning and the absolute best way to learn is to try, even if you make mistakes! There is an old Gaelic saying. I can't remember the Gaelic for it just now, but in English it means: Better broken Gaelic than perfect English!

Okay now for a few corrections...

uabhasach is another one of those exceptions to the "noun first, adjective second" rule. Your sentence should read: Tha i uabhasach goathach an diugh!

Sgrobh thu:
You wrote:
I bha snok an-de a-muigh agus tha i uamhasach an-diugh!

This is good! It's not exactly correct, but you got your point across! I was able to understand what you were trying to say. We just need to tweek it a little!

First off, in Gaelic the verb almost always come first in the sentence. So lets make Bha the first word and move I to the second word which gives us

Bha i snog / It was nice

I would move a-muigh in front of an d which gives us

Bha i snog a-muigh an d / It was nice outside yesterday

The second half of your sentence says "and it is terrible today!"

So to put the two halves together:

Bha i snog a-muigh an d agus tha i uamhasach an-diugh!
It was nice out yesterday and it is terrible today!

Sgrobh thu:
You wrote:
Tappadh leat! biggrin.gif (Just use one p, dear! wink.gif )

'Se do bheatha a charaid!
You are welcome my friend!

This post has been edited by WizardofOwls on 09-Apr-2005, 04:55 AM
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WizardofOwls 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (Faileas @ 08-Apr-2005, 12:51 PM)
I pronounce "chuideachadh" "chodjochoo" with both chs pronounced like in "loch" and the ooh- sound very short, close to the sound that some people make when they see something disgusting ... ( wink.gif )but probably other dialects do otherwise, hehe. Nae mind, ye wont go wrong with this one smile.gif .

All the other things are completely okay. biggrin.gif

Hallo a Fhaileas a ghridh!
Hello Faileas dear!

Tapadh leat airson do chuideachaidh!
Thanks for your help!

Ceist bheag, ma tha.
A small question, however.

In the above, I was attemtping to give a pronunciation for "chuideachaidh". Notice that it is slenderized. That should affect that final vowel sound, shouldn't it?

And as far as the ch sounds goes, the one that I said sounded like ch in church, you rendered as "dj" in your pronunciation guide. Aren't they nearly the same sound? Your's is just vocalized a little more than mine.
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Sonee 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 02:12 PM
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uabhasach is another one of those exceptions to the "noun first, adjective second" rule. Your sentence should read: Tha i uabhasach goathach an diugh!

First off, in Gaelic the verb almost always come first in the sentence. So lets make Bha the first word and move I to the second word which gives us

Bha i snog / It was nice

I would move a-muigh in front of an d which gives us

Bha i snog a-muigh an d / It was nice outside yesterday


Sgrobh thu:
You wrote:
Tappadh leat! biggrin.gif (Just use one p, dear! wink.gif )



Believe it or not but my first sentence read 'Tha i uabhasach goathach an diugh' but then I remembered your rule and changed it!!! Go figure! biggrin.gif

I also debated about which to put first: "a-muigh" or "an d", now I know!

oops biggrin.gif I was looking at my phonetic spelling not the actual word when I wrote that thank you!!! My bad!!



Tapadh leat, tha sibh math charaid!

This post has been edited by WizardofOwls on 09-Apr-2005, 04:57 AM
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WizardofOwls 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE (Sonee @ 08-Apr-2005, 02:12 PM)
Believe it or not but my first sentence read 'Tha i uabhasach goathach an diugh' but then I remembered your rule and changed it!!! Go figure! biggrin.gif

- snip -

Tapadh leat, tha sibh math charaid!

Hmmm... not exactly sure which rule you are speaking of here! Tha i uabhasach goathach an diugh would have been correct, just needed to change from present tense (tha) to past tense (bha).

And I'm not exactly certain what you are trying to say there at the end.

tha sibh math charaid

Are you trying to say "You are good, my friend" or "You are a good friend"?

You are good, my friend would be "Tha thu math, a charaid" (I'm not sure why you used the formal sibh instead of the familar thu here! There's no need to call me sir! biggrin.gif )

To say "You are a good friend" you need a completely different verb and sentence structure here.

When you are saying that one thing is the the same as another thing (ie noun to noun) you have to use a different verb for "be" which is "is".

Here is the construction you would use:

'Se caraid math a th' annadsa. (Literally translated, this means "It is a good friend that is in you")

'Se is a contraction of the words "Is e"

annadsa is a contraction of the the words "ann tusa" (in you)

This post has been edited by WizardofOwls on 09-Apr-2005, 05:00 AM
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Sonee 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 02:41 PM
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Good grief!!! I'm as confused as you are!!! While I was writing that post I was trying to get my son to stay in bed and take his nap!! I really have no clue what I was going for there!!

i used sibh instead of thu because I just copied it to my notes and knew it meant you!!! I am recopying my notes and trying to use different words in complete sentences!! I was indeed trying to say "You are a good friend"!! Are you telling me then, that the proper way to say that phrase would be "Se caraid math a th' annadsa"?


Sheesh, I think I'm trying to use brain cells that haven't been used for a long time!! They don't want to absorb this information properly! Give me time, I'll get it!! I hope your a very patient man!! biggrin.gif
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WizardofOwls 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 02:46 PM
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biggrin.gif No problem! I understand completely!

Yes, the proper way to say "You are a good friend" would be
'Se caraid math a th' annadsa

JUst out of curiosity, have you had a chance to look at the first Gaelic lesson I posted? I think you might enjoy it! smile.gif
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Sonee 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 02:57 PM
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Actually, yes!! That is what I have been going over all day!! I have gotten as far as the second exercise!! I am trying to process all of the new words!! Some of them I can remember some I can't!! I can pronounce them all fairly well, just can't always remember which word means what?? Goodness, I didn't study this hard in school! Who'd a thunk I'd be studying so hard 13 years after I left school!!

Does the website you linked to give pronounciation for the weather related words you posted earlier? (ie: fiadhauch, gaothach, etc)

Oh yeah, how do you say "garden" in Gaelic?
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WizardofOwls 
Posted: 08-Apr-2005, 03:08 PM
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No, but you can find a listing of some weather related words with pronunciations at http://www.scottishradiance.com in the Gaelic section there.

Garden = grradh (f) pronounced gahragh (the gh in my pronunciation guide there is very deep, sounds like you are trying to gargle!
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