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> Prisons, Is this to harsh?
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Annabelle 
Posted: 19-Dec-2004, 11:58 PM
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Heck. Let's just "hang em high" and save the tax payers money!



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Keltic 
Posted: 20-Dec-2004, 12:04 AM
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Let's not forget about the victims here. We have been arguing about the inhumane treatment of the criminals but don't forget that there are few victimless crimes. Victims can suffer extreme emotional distress which can continue long after the criminal is released. The choice is made to commit the crime, not to be on the receiving end of the act. While there are those that can be rehabilitated, there are ultimately many that will be returning throughout their lives no matter how much money or psychobabble is thrown at the problem.

In Canada, the recidivism rate was cited to be at around 10% for federal prisoners by Corrections Canada. When the method for arriving at this figure was looked at, it was realized that the real figure was around 37%. Corrections Canada doesn't include returns by those who have been out for more than 2 years or those who have completed their full sentence, nor does it include those who end up in a provincial jail. This is in a country where the federal prisons come closer to country clubs. Corrections officers are armed with only handcuffs. All other weapons have been removed because they are said to provoke. They have even been refused stab proof vests because this shows a lack of trust.

This is not to challenge the validity of a number of points that were raised by everyone in this thread but to point out that there are always two sides.

Clifford Olson was arrested 94 times for fraud, armed robbery and sexual assault. When do we say enough is enough. If at one point in that 25 year career, the key was thrown away, 11 children might have lived to see adulthood. Those are the eleven that he lead the police to. There is a belief that there might have been around 20 more. Even in prison, he manages to stir up the pot. I was getting letters from him for some time when I worked in the Canadian Parliament. He was writing to demand the names and addresses of every person who signed petitions calling for the return of the death penalty. The petition used him as the perfect person to welcome the death penalty back. I sent him the text of the petition but no names. Soon after, he had his phone privileges taken away because he was phoning some of his victims families. This was almost 20 years after he had committed the murders.

This is ultimately an extreme case but it is not the only one out there. There are a lot of victims out there who are serving a life sentence. The fact that the person who committed the act might not have been given a fair shake at life, doesn't change things.




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bubba 
Posted: 20-Dec-2004, 12:23 AM
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I don't think anyone here is talking about letting criminals off easy or making their incarceration pleasant. It's more a matter of deciding if we're going to be vengefull or if we want to rehabilitate those that CAN be rehabilitated. It's not a simple matter and needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. There are some that are truely evil that there is no hope for that should never see daylight again but there are others that are salvagable.


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freekenny 
Posted: 21-Dec-2004, 03:49 PM
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O'siyo,
~ A O'ginalli of mine sent this to me....thought I would post it in this Thread/Forum..for the record, I am only posting it and in no way reflects/has anything to do with my feelings on this particular situation or any other in this forum..

~Do you remember February 1993 when a young 3 yr. old
was taken from a shopping mall in Liverpool, by two
10-year-old boys? Jamie Bulger walked away from his mother
for only a second and Jon Venables took his hand and led him
out of the mall with his friend Robert Thompson.
They took Jamie on a walk for over two and a half
miles. Along the way, they stopped every now and again
to torture the poor little boy who was crying
constantly for his mommy.
Finally they stopped at a railway track where they
brutally kicked him, threw stones at him, rubbed
paint in his eyes and pushed batteries up his
anus. It was actually worse than this... What these
two boys did was so horrendous that Jamie's mother
was forbidden to identify his body.
They then left his beaten small body on the tracks so
a train could run him over to hide the mess they had
created. These two boys, even being boys,
understood what they did was wrong, hence trying to
make it look like an accident.
This week Lady Justice Butler-Sloss has awarded the
two boys anonymity for the rest of their lives
when they leave custody with new identities. We
cannot let this happen. They will also leave early
this year only serving just over half of their sentence.
One paper even stated that Robert may go
on to a University. They are getting away with their
crime. They disgustingly and violently took Jamie's life away.
In return they get a new life.~
~~Sty-U red_bandana.gif


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bubba 
Posted: 21-Dec-2004, 09:13 PM
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FreeKenny, that's an example of evil that should never be let loose on society again, ever.
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Rindy 
Posted: 21-Dec-2004, 11:08 PM
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QUOTE (freekenny @ 21-Dec-2004, 01:49 PM)
O'siyo,
~ A O'ginalli of mine sent this to me....thought I would post it in this Thread/Forum..for the record, I am only posting it and in no way reflects/has anything to do with my feelings on this particular situation or any other in this forum..

~Do you remember February 1993 when a young 3 yr. old
was taken from a shopping mall in Liverpool, by two
10-year-old boys? Jamie Bulger walked away from his mother
for only a second and Jon Venables took his hand and led him
out of the mall with his friend Robert Thompson.
They took Jamie on a walk for over two and a half
miles. Along the way, they stopped every now and again
to torture the poor little boy who was crying
constantly for his mommy.
Finally they stopped at a railway track where they
brutally kicked him, threw stones at him, rubbed
paint in his eyes and pushed batteries up his
anus. It was actually worse than this... What these
two boys did was so horrendous that Jamie's mother
was forbidden to identify his body.
They then left his beaten small body on the tracks so
a train could run him over to hide the mess they had
created. These two boys, even being boys,
understood what they did was wrong, hence trying to
make it look like an accident.
This week Lady Justice Butler-Sloss has awarded the
two boys anonymity for the rest of their lives
when they leave custody with new identities. We
cannot let this happen. They will also leave early
this year only serving just over half of their sentence.
One paper even stated that Robert may go
on to a University. They are getting away with their
crime. They disgustingly and violently took Jamie's life away.
In return they get a new life.~
~~Sty-U red_bandana.gif

Yes, I agree this what we need prisons for. Just because they were young what ever they knew right from wrong. God, only knows what they will do in the future. I agree bubba.
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Annabelle 
Posted: 22-Dec-2004, 07:17 PM
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you can't tell me these boys didn't know what they did were normal!!!!!

Need to spank kids more!!!!

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Rindy 
Posted: 22-Dec-2004, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (Annabelle @ 22-Dec-2004, 05:17 PM)
you can't tell me these boys didn't know what they did were normal!!!!!

Need to spank kids more!!!!

biggrin.gif

Boy, you got that right Annabelle!

You have a Merry Christmas!
Rindy
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single speed 
Posted: 24-Dec-2004, 10:01 AM
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I agree that there are sociopaths out there that should never see the light of day. Howver, our society being civilized as it is, is also unjust. The injustice of inequatible schools and low minimum wages helps to create crime problems for people who, allowed the chance to achieve through education and a more solid family unit, would not become part of the prison population. The solution in not necessarily putting people away for life, but providing them with the opportunity to have a life.

The sociopaths, serial killers, habitual criminals, and others whom have care not for the laws of civil society, deserve long stays behing proison walls.



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single speed 
Posted: 24-Dec-2004, 10:03 AM
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QUOTE (Annabelle @ 22-Dec-2004, 07:17 PM)

Need to spank kids more!!!!

biggrin.gif



Agreed Annabelle. Parents need to discipline their children. Many do not. Some barely know who their kids are. I wonder why they dont.
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Rindy 
Posted: 24-Dec-2004, 03:15 PM
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I agree with both of you on spanking. You can sure tell the kids who have been spanked and the ones that need spanking. But now a days it is considered child abuse. I think it is child abuse when people set their children up for a world that doesn't give them everything they want including temper tantrums to get what they want. Makes me wonder how the next generation of children will be.
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Merry Christmas
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seadreamer 
Posted: 24-Dec-2004, 06:05 PM
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Rindy,

You said:

"I agree with both of you on spanking. You can sure tell the kids who have been spanked and the ones that need spanking. "

I may be wrong on this Rindy, but the ones who have been "spanked" are often the ones who in elementary school feel that aggression and violence have been sanctioned by their parents and are therefore an ok way to solve problems. Every elementary school teacher can tell relatively quickly which of their grade one students are likely to go on for careers in your prisons. It is more likely the kids who have been beaten er "spanked", that ultimately have the most problems.

Check this out at your local elementary school. Ask the teachers, Who in the school system presents the most problems? Is it the kids who have been beaten or the children who come from loving and respectful families that present as the most problematic?

I think it's an absurd notion to believe that you get loving and respectful people out of "spanking" children. By the way, with this spanking notion, is their any measure about how hard you should hit them?????

That's my opinion.

GMd


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I will give you an example which I have often puzzled over. The spider dances her web without knowing there are flies who will get caught in it. The fly, dancing nonchalantly on a sunbeam, gets caught without knowing what lies in store. But through both of them "It" dances and inside and outside are united in this dance. So too, the Archer hits the target without having aimed - more I cannot say.

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Annabelle 
Posted: 24-Dec-2004, 06:24 PM
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I have alot of teacher's who tell me the parents don't want to be bothered with the kids behavior problems anny more.

Let's go back to wacks on the butt!!!!

Problem is the kids are getting to the point they have more personal rights than parents do. And many kids threaten their parents with DFAC's if they do any type of physiscal punishment.

A


Everyone have a wonderful holiday season!

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Rindy 
Posted: 24-Dec-2004, 06:52 PM
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QUOTE (seadreamer @ 24-Dec-2004, 04:05 PM)
Rindy,

You said:

"I agree with both of you on spanking. You can sure tell the kids who have been spanked and the ones that need spanking. "

I may be wrong on this Rindy, but the ones who have been "spanked" are often the ones who in elementary school feel that aggression and violence have been sanctioned by their parents and are therefore an ok way to solve problems. Every elementary school teacher can tell relatively quickly which of their grade one students are likely to go on for careers in your prisons. It is more likely the kids who have been beaten er "spanked", that ultimately have the most problems.

Check this out at your local elementary school. Ask the teachers, Who in the school system presents the most problems? Is it the kids who have been beaten or the children who come from loving and respectful families that present as the most problematic?

I think it's an absurd notion to believe that you get loving and respectful people out of "spanking" children. By the way, with this spanking notion, is their any measure about how hard you should hit them?????

That's my opinion.

GMd

seadreamer,

There is a big difference in "Spanking" and "Child Abuse." Every child is different. This is crap about the ones who have been "Spanked" are the problems. The schools a lot of times want the child to take meds to settle them down. We live in a pill for your problem world. Ask any of the teachers, around here would tell you, yes spanking is needed.

I in no way saying child abuse is ok! That was not my intention, but I still say you can tell the ones who have been and the ones who havent Have you any children? I think a lot of todays teen and up problems are the parents that don't give a crap what their child is doing. They both work, and are not there for them.
I could go on forever with this subject. My last comment "you can be spanked and still come from a very loving family.
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Rindy 
Posted: 24-Dec-2004, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE (Annabelle @ 24-Dec-2004, 04:24 PM)
I have alot of teacher's who tell me the parents don't want to be bothered with the kids behavior problems anny more.

Let's go back to wacks on the butt!!!!

Problem is the kids are getting to the point they have more personal rights than parents do. And many kids threaten their parents with DFAC's if they do any type of physiscal punishment.

A


Everyone have a wonderful holiday season!

Hey Annabelle,

Hope your Christmas eve is going well. The threat of the DFAC, yes, but where do we draw the line. That is the hard part. I believe in Spanking, not when your temper is flared up just on the behind, one will do.
Anyhow hope I didn't open up a hole new subject..

Hey Merry Christmas newyear.gif
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