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> What Is The Definition Of A Pagan Yours And Others, Paganism is a diverse topic....lets see
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celticwoodsman 
Posted: 20-Sep-2004, 09:41 AM
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There are many wise people in this forum, and I do highly respect shadows on the enlightenment he has offered to us thumbs_up.gif

Now to take the matter a lil closer to the people who may frequent these forums members of celtic clans, irish families, or just with an interest in the celtic culture...Taoists, Buddhists, Confuscists, Hindus, they are all clustered in the original definition of "pagan" such that they are non-abrahamic in nature. We all agree in that. But with those who are in this list as spiritualists in "the Grove" is there a title or a difference between a "celtic pagan," "eurasian pagan," "SE asian pagan." If there is a celtic cousin in Australia and is a spiritualist (pagan) is he/she an "aussie pagan" because they may have some aboriginal people influence in their culture.

I guess that what I am getting at, is we have established that the websters dictionary is a cold, harsh definition of pagan, as I am sure the definiton of witch is not much better. But what to you personally is your distinction, or perhaps as well how does one distinguish one belief from the next. unsure.gif

We are all bothers and sisters of the earth, and I am not trying to pigeon hole one belief from the next, just trying to spark a good conversation, as well as trying to find ways to defeat the cold stereotype of witch, shaman, spiritualist, pagan.


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You will not go hungry until I starve, you shall not go thirsty as I have drink, you shall have my bed and be warm, you shall sit on my right as we feast in the great halls of our ancestors, and for when we die, and go to the great battle of valhalla....we shall stand together and fight ....at the end we shall look upon each other strewn with the blood of OUR enemies, and then....I shall call you FRIEND
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celticwoodsman 
Posted: 20-Sep-2004, 09:43 AM
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witch

\Witch\, n. [OE. wicche, AS. wicce, fem., wicca, masc.; perhaps the same word as AS. w[=i]tiga, w[=i]tga, a soothsayer (cf. Wiseacre); cf. Fries. wikke, a witch, LG. wikken to predict, Icel. vitki a wizard, vitka to bewitch.] 1. One who practices the black art, or magic; one regarded as possessing supernatural or magical power by compact with an evil spirit, esp. with the Devil; a sorcerer or sorceress; -- now applied chiefly or only to women, but formerly used of men as well.

There was a man in that city whose name was Simon, a witch. --Wyclif (Acts viii. 9).

He can not abide the old woman of Brentford; he swears she's a witch. --Shak.

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celticwoodsman 
Posted: 20-Sep-2004, 09:45 AM
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sha·man Pronunciation Key (shämn, sh-)
n.
A member of certain tribal societies who acts as a medium between the visible world and an invisible spirit world and who practices magic or sorcery for purposes of healing, divination, and control over natural events.


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[Russian, from Tungus aman, Buddhist monk, shaman, from Tocharian B amne, monk, from Prakrit amana, from Sanskrit ramaa, from ráma, religious exercise.]

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bubba 
Posted: 20-Sep-2004, 10:16 AM
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Personally, I think I'd rather be known as a heathen, all things considered.
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural heathens or heathen
1 : an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible
2 : an uncivilized or irreligious person
Definition one fits me best I think. Pagan has taken on a bit much of the New Age mystical trappings for my tastes. Don't misunderstand, I have nothing against it if it does anyone good and helps them find balance in life, I just don't need the group thing. In matters of faith I'm very much a solitary sort.


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[SIZE=7]Curtesie is cumbersom to them that kens it not.
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celticwoodsman 
Posted: 23-Sep-2004, 11:35 AM
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I feel so happy that we have people of so many diverse experiences that we can have such great conversations in this forum, I drift in the other forums but none are as diverse i think than in this one...mind you I havent been in any of the locked forums, thats just because I have not been invited in tongue.gif not like that is a plug for a pw, just a statement. Now it has been stated over and over that we all believe in the concept of be mindful and be respectful, but how does one address conflict. I do not mean that if I see someone and their view is different than mine...I do not say that that person is wrong. Far be it from me to say that their path is different from my path so I must disagree to such a degree that I cause conflict. Too many wars have been caused due to the fact of a conflict in religious practice, not just within the Abrahamic religions but even in the "pagan" faiths. What I want to know through the advice of others is that how do we address a person who wants to be involved in a religion because it is "hollywood cool."

It has been my experience, going to different ceremonies including esbats or festivals where you run into people who have watched movies too many times, and aside from wearing the hip clothing they talk of trying to curse a person in their school because of being in a different social circle, or using magick (dabbling) trying to mimic what they have seen in a movie, or worse going up to a priest/priestess...and saying that they are wrong in a ceremony because some book they got in the "new age" section states it has to be done this way. I have even come across people who have said that the priestess was not a "real" practicioner of "witchcraft" because she did not wear black or dye her hair black....any advise on what I can do to help alleviate these situations (other than ignoring them)?
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bubba 
Posted: 23-Sep-2004, 11:48 AM
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I don't think there is much you can do. Outright laughter isn't polite and a sad shake of the head will probably go unnoticed. All you can do is tell them that, in spite of the movies, what works for a person is the right way for them and there isn't any specific way to do such things.
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celticwoodsman 
Posted: 23-Sep-2004, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (bubba @ 23-Sep-2004, 11:48 AM)
Taken fron Bubba on a question in the fae: (abridged)
Nobody has convinced me that I need anyone standing between myself and the Creator nor does anyone else have more understanding of the Creator, which I think of as the Goddess, than I can have. Fancy robes and a following don't mean anything more than power over others. I think we all need to find our own path, of which there are many to the same destination.

The good thing with "paganism" is that as stated by shadow and myself, this belief "system" IS a spirituality, not a theocracy. We may choose to have a designated leader as a priest or priestess, but this is just like a president of a club lie the Hibernians, masons, or elks. (i hope they don't mind that I lumped them together) We (rather I) do not need a robed person to tell me what to believe, quite honestly I see no fault in a person who does desire this...we all need a guide sometimes. I do not bash theocracy, and neither does bubba, nor shadows, or any one one this list that I know of but I do think that what sets us apart from montheistic theocracies is that we are dependant on solely our personal relationship with the gods, goddesses, mom, dad, whatever.
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Sekhmet 
Posted: 23-Sep-2004, 02:38 PM
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QUOTE (celticwoodsman @ 23-Sep-2004, 12:35 PM)
It has been my experience, going to different ceremonies including esbats or festivals where you run into people who have watched movies too many times, and aside from wearing the hip clothing they talk of trying to curse a person in their school because of being in a different social circle, or using magick (dabbling) trying to mimic what they have seen in a movie, or worse going up to a priest/priestess...and saying that they are wrong in a ceremony because some book they got in the "new age" section states it has to be done this way. I have even come across people who have said that the priestess was not a "real" practicioner of "witchcraft" because she did not wear black or dye her hair black....any advise on what I can do to help alleviate these situations (other than ignoring them)?

Ahh, the fluffbunnies.

Personally, the ones that dress like Stevie Nicks barfed on them or are head to toe black (including hair, nails, toenails, and bad makeup) amuse me, but that's me.

The ones so far lost in their Hollywood fantasy that they couldn't tell a wand from an athame, quite frankly, are the ones who give the group as a whole a bad image. You can't exactly be taken seriously with those around.

I always hold out hope that they'll someday either drift to another fad or this is a phase and they'll get over it. At least my sister managed that and a few others.

I've tried to educate people like that. It's been my experience that they don't want help, they don't want guidance, they want to project this image because it's "kewl". I keep trying, I'll admit it. But eventually I cut them loose.

Usually I just smile and nod and let them go about their business. When they irritate me, I ask them what they feed their esbats. The stunned look is priceless. biggrin.gif


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bubba 
Posted: 23-Sep-2004, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (Sekhmet @ 23-Sep-2004, 01:38 PM)
When they irritate me, I ask them what they feed their esbats. The stunned look is priceless. biggrin.gif

That's great! Mind if I steal it? laugh.gif
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Sekhmet 
Posted: 23-Sep-2004, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE (bubba @ 23-Sep-2004, 05:22 PM)
That's great! Mind if I steal it? laugh.gif

Heck no! Steal away!
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celticwoodsman 
Posted: 24-Sep-2004, 10:18 AM
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fluffbunnies....twinks....LOL I dont want to bash a counter culture or subculture for their tactics, but when you can put them in their place like that it is just so awesome....I have been ablle to sit down and talk to a couple of them where they stop buying "spencer's goods" penticles (the ones with the skulls, & glass eyes) and talk to them, introduce them to my priestess. I just say are you doing this because your friends are, or because you want to...Dependant on the answer...some ( 1 out of A LOT) actually want to be involved, and just don't have the right resources. When I can help that one I feel so happy biggrin.gif
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silverdragon 
Posted: 24-Sep-2004, 03:16 PM
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ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know -- more at KNOW
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god


Not me... I'm convinced there's something...

her·e·tic
Pronunciation: 'her-&-"tik
Function: noun
1 : a dissenter from established church dogma; especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth
2 : one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine : NONCONFORMIST


There I go... that's me!


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Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?
They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning
Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?

    ~ J.R.R. Tolkien

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Aaediwen 
Posted: 24-Sep-2004, 05:40 PM
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Hmm, what Agnostic means to me is along the lines of one who does not follow any perticular belief system, yet has their belief in the existance of a supreme diety.

I believe very strongly in the existance of God(s)/Goddess(es), but I don't practice or follow any named belief system or religon. I have my own view on the identity of the devine.


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celticwoodsman 
Posted: 27-Sep-2004, 08:46 AM
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perhaps instead of a pagan beliefs and practices title we should call it heritics, and agnostics. I always thought that a heretic was a person who had "hearth wisdom" I guess it can be the case...An old sage or midwife may tell stories warning of lilith towards a lil child, or not to bathe in the river for you might die. I guess that those stories could be considered dissention.

I recall an old story from the area around the Great Lakes that originated from Polish immigrants: Do not go swimming in the lake before the feast of John the Baptist. The waters are not consecrated before that, and a curse shall come upon you. Being interested in historical epidemics, a few of us decided to investigate this tidbit of hearth wisdom. People remember stories of children dying from consumption on the shores of Lake Erie up until the 1960's.
It just so happens that the number of cases of TB (consumption) before June 24th was quite dramatic. So though this is an example where reverence to a dogma is cherished and respected, there are many other stories of old wives tales or lore that can be stepped in legend or local folk lore, that may seem against the theology of christiandom and still have a good basis to follow. In a way if you do listen to the wisdom of a midwife (not just in the legends of the hearth) you may be labeled a heretic...but you might just live longer. cool.gif
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celticwoodsman 
Posted: 29-Sep-2004, 10:05 AM
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To further add to this list, does anyone else have any "hearth stories" from their region. Local old wives tales, superstitious sayings, that are unique to your area? I have listed above one on the Lake Erie region of the US. This may not be specifically pagan, but those would be welcome.

We have a discussion on Fae, why not lead this forum list further away from pagan/christian differences, and perhaps draw from similarities. If not hearth wisdom, then some traditions or other similarities in culture.

Some common examples:
Day of the Dead (spanish catholic), Samhain (pagan), All Saints/souls days (catholic).

Yule(pagan), Christmas (christian)

aside from those perhaps just observations in similarities. I mean we can all look at a calander and see that there are dates that are close...What else?
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