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> Accurate Bible?, controversy
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reddrake79 
Posted: 21-Jul-2004, 01:04 AM
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No geological evidence of a mass flood?

Study the Grand Canyon, and compare it to what we know happened with Mt. St. Helens. When Mt. St. Helens erupted it caused spirit lake to lose its water. When this happend a "mini grand canyon", 8 feet high if I remember correctly, was formed in a matter of hours. Mt. St. helens also explained how a tree can be fossilized THROUGH several layers. After the eruption divers explored spirit lake and found that trees were floating almost verically in the water because their roots had soaked up the water and minerals. They then settled into the sediment on the bottom of the lake so firmly that the divers could not move them. There is a very good video about this, but I cant remember the name of it. I saw it in Junior High and at the time didn't care what the name was only that something was blowing up. smile.gif

What would a person expect to find if a world wide flood occured? "millions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth."

what do we find, "millions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth."

-Ken Ham wink.gif

How do you know we aren't decended from adam and eve? Were you there? do you have some evidence?

How do we know the earth is older than the Bible says? The dating methods that scientists use only work if you know everything about the organism and its environment, including the ratio of parent element to daughter element that was originally in the organism when it died. Since no scientist was alive and recorded that information for us we can't accuratly, or even remotly, scientifically prove the age of the fossilized organism. Scientists have to assume certain things to use current dating methods. Assumtions do not equal facts.

Did you know that organic matter has been found in incompletely fossilized dinosour remains? (i erred earlier saying that it was blood for certain) Researchers have found something that according to their physical (i.e shape, coloring, and size) descriptions they suspect might be blood, but according to the articles I read haven't proved it conclusivly yet. wouldn't expect that after a few thousand millenia.
here iare two links for articles on this.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4232cen_s1997.asp
http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v3i12f.htm

also there are scientists who are working on a theory, yes it is only a theory right now and nothing has been proved although experiments are being conducted, that the speed of light has not remained constant since creation, or dawn of time if you prefer, that it has actually slowed down to what it is today. According to their model this would explain the (is it red shift or blue shift, astronomy was not my strong subject) shift in color of stars in our galaxy and how we can see the light from very distant stars.
here is a link to an artical on it.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0..._cdk_davies.asp

Lets use reason, logic, and evidence instead of agenda, vitriol, and hear-say.

This post has been edited by reddrake79 on 21-Jul-2004, 07:09 PM


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Aragorn 
Posted: 21-Jul-2004, 11:00 AM
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Thanks reddrake79, All we ask in this discussion is, if you make claims to please back them up with some kind of reference or information. To just spout off and rant is unprofessional and is inconsiderate of other who are trying to a valid point or arguement. We are all here to help each other not to judge or flame.


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Elspeth 
Posted: 23-Jul-2004, 01:39 PM
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I have not looked into geological evidence of the deluge, but I was taught when studying Greek Mythology that most all mythologies all about the world have a myth to explain a deluge. So, if cultures all around the world have in their storytelling a flood that covered all the lands, it seems to reason it really happened.

Much of the Bible seem incomprehensible when it comes to logistics. Inaacurate? Perhaps. I don't know. It doesn't really matter to me, because the point of the Bible isn't in the nitpicky little details, but the overall message. I wouldn't toss out a novel for having a few inaccuracies, I certainly wouldn't toss out the Bible if some things appear too improbible for us to understand.

But isn't it possible that these things appear to be inacurate because we don't have all the information. My son is obsessed with reading about dinosaurs, alligators, snakes, whatever. He will quote me facts as to the size of a dinosaur heart. I have to remind him that what he read may be correct, but it is only a supposition based upon research. New information could come to light that would tell us that the dinosaur actually had four small hearts, not one.

The same is true with the Bible. Maybe someday we will find ancient texts that will explain the supposed inconsistencies. Maybe that is just the scientist in me. The Bible isn't about science or proof, it is about faith.

OK, I'll stop now because I'm starting to ramble.... rolleyes.gif


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reddrake79 
Posted: 23-Jul-2004, 03:38 PM
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I agree that the bible is about faith. That is what my faith is in, what the Bible tells me. That being said, if the Bible is innacurate in one thing, ie. geology, history, science, then how do we know where else the Bible is wrong? Could it have then been wrong it what it said about Jesus' death and ressurection?

I do not believe the Bible is innacurate in the least, in anything. I brought up this topic because other people said the Bible was innacurate and I am giving them an opportunity to prove it. wink.gif

Now I admit there are some hard concepts to wrap our head around, such as the trinity and Jesus being both God and Man. However, the Bible has proved to be accurate in areas of science and history so why not eternal salvation? So far we have had some good points come up earlier in this thread, I believe we laid them to rest however and showed that the Bible was trustworthy.

We have had some points come up that neither side can prove: evolution or creation. Science cannot observe creation (it only happened once) it cannot recreate creation (we aren't God) Science has not observed evolution in either the living world or the paleantoligical (sp?) world. Scientist were not there to observe evolution happing at the dawn of time. Neither position is scientifically verifiable. They are both matters of faiith.

It is important to me that my Bible is trustworthy. I also would like others to understand the Bible and what it has to offer better.

This thread has caused me to look at my Bible more thouroughly. But the main topic here isn't about what my faith is in but about the accuracy of the Bible. Sofar no one has shown that the Bible is innacurate. (is that a challenge I hear?) smile.gif
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Posted: 23-Jul-2004, 05:51 PM
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No one has proven it accurate either.

This discussion has been going on for centuries and may ( I say may only because I do not see much future for the world as we know it now ) go on for many more.

There are those who believe it as history and those who do not, there are those who say they found the truth while trying to prove it wrong and those who lost their faith while trying to prove it right.

One's beliefs can ebb and flow and only the creator knows the truth and will share that truth when he/she feels that you are ready for the truth.


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Elspeth 
Posted: 23-Jul-2004, 09:33 PM
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Actually science sees evolution all the time. Bacteria evolves so that it is becomes immune to anti-biotics, animals have evolved, people are taller than they used to be. Evolution, in it's pure sense happens all the time.

The concept of humans evolving from apes is another matter. I love the saying if man evolved from apes, why are there still apes?

It's funny I have no problem with believing the Trinity of Jesus rising from the dead, but I do wonder who Cain and Able married. Either there were other people there as well, or they committed incest. For me that holds open some interesting possiblities. Could human evolution and creationism both be true? Could have God allowed apes to evolve to humans and have created Adam and Eve as well. God would not be bound by time as we know it. 7 days may be eons according to carbon dating methods. I love the mystery of it all.
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reddrake79 
Posted: 24-Jul-2004, 08:29 PM
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Actually science does not see Macroevolution happen, what you described is natural selections. Not the change of one creature into another, say ape into man. The bacteria have a gene that creates a substance that reacts to the antibiotics and kills the bacteria. Science has just killed off those bacteria with that gene, which might be the dominant form of that bacteria. However, the bacteria that mutated (genetic replication mistake) and do not carry that gene do not die, thus becoming the dominant form of that bacteria However, it is still a bacteria not something else. This is called microevolution, or natural selection, and does not involve creatures changing into other creatures.

Man is taller now? I am barely over 5' tall and I know tons of people who are shorter than me (my wife for instance). How many asian people do you know? The overall hight of man may be taller now in the US (because women like tall men for some reason) But man has not evolved into a taller creature. The genes were always there. Evolution as commonly understood, is suppose to be the addition of genetic material to the dna. Science has never seen information added. It has seen information deformed & removed. However, this is not enough for Macroevolution

Obviously Cain and Able married their sisters. God did not tell people this was bad until He gave Moses the law several thousand years later. Jacob married his half sister after all. One reason why this could be is that Adam and Eve were perfect creations (physically and genetically perfect) There offspring would be so close to genetically perfect that any mutations would not be redundant. Everybody has imperfect genes, where this is something wrong with them, however these imperfect genes are recessive and do not cause problems in their owners. Now, two people from the same family may have those same recessive mutant genes, if they produce offspring together then their offspring may get the same recessive gene from both parents and that gene becomes dominant in the offsping causing mental or physical deformities. (I am not saying that all deformities are the result of siblings reproducing together)

If there were people around with Adam and Eve (other than their kids) then that opens up more theological problems. Jesus was the "Last Adam" 1 Corinthians 15:45 He came to give man a way out from what the "First Adam" did. The Bible teaches that death and sin entered the world because of what the first Adam did. If there were other people then were they not blameless because they had no part in the first sin? God sent the flood because there was none righteous except Noah and his family. If they were blameless then why are they condemned too. Romans 3:23 "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" They means everybody living and dead. Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

God said "Let us create man in our own image" Genesis 1:26 The bible then Tells how he made Adam. I don't beleive God looks like an ape. Adam Got lonely and needed help, so God then performed surgery and made Woman. (she was so hot that Adam said, "WHOO, MAN.") smile.gif Why did Adam need help if there were other people around that were close enough for his kids to marry?

I would recomend going to answersingenesis.org and listening to "Adams Race" for an excellent audio recording of this specific topic.

I have one question for anyone who thinks that evolution and the Bible work together.
Where in the Bible does God say He used evolution?
Remember that evolution is not a Scientific Law, only a theory.
God says he created, and boom (according to Bill Cosby there has to be a sound effect in there smile.gif) things were created.

The Bible dispels the notion that the days of creation were more than 24 hour periods.
Genesis 1:5 "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."
Genesis 1:8 "...the evening and the morning were the second day."
and so on through the six days of creation. Morning-evening-day, Morning-evening-day, Morning-evening-day. I have a good notion what an evening and morning are and how they make up a day. That tells me God is talking about 6 literal 24 hr priods of time. If you believe that each morning and day is more than 24 hrs, then those are long periods of light and darkness.
Your right, God is not bound by time but He told us how much time it took him to create.
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Elspeth 
Posted: 24-Jul-2004, 09:49 PM
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The scientific definition of evolution is not that one thing evolves into another completely different thing. The definition of evolution is that an organism modifies to fit its envornment through the process of natural selection. So, man did not come from apes through evolution. However, if God had chosen to take a creature He had created and make it into a man, then it happened.

Overall, on average, in America, people are taller than they used to be. The keyword is on average.

I am not so sure Cain and Able married sisters. It never says so. It is an assumption. Actually, we are to assume Able never married anyone. Read Genisis 4:14. Who are tho people Cain was afraid of? He went to live in the land of Nod, East of Eden. Who peopled that land? The Bible only tells us Adam and Even had Cain and Able. Who were the people of Nod? The thing is, even if there were others, by the time generations passed and people intermarried, eventually all would be able to claim Adam and Eve as their ancestors. There are things in the Bible that do not have explainations. And I believe it was meant to be that way.

It takes 24 hours in our world to be a night and a day. Who are we to say that is how long it took at the beginning of the world? At the Beginning of the World, a night and a day could have been a thousand of our years. Who is to say the earth revolved as it does now, or has always been in the same orbit.

God is HUGE. He existed before everything. I can't put Him in a box of my limited understanding. Therefore I stay open to all sorts of possibilities, as long as they do not directly contradict the message of the Bible. There are things in the Bible that do defy traditional explanation and I have no problem with that. God knows the truth, why do I need to know all the truths? I might get to know someday, but not on earth and I'm OK with that.
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reddrake79 
Posted: 25-Jul-2004, 10:59 AM
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Im tired of people saying that I am the one putting God in a box, I am mearly trusting what He has said to us in the Bible. I am not putting words in his mouth, merely listening to what He has said. Actually I cannot think of something God talks about in the Bible He doesn't explain.

as for the term evolution it means both, however I have been using it as it is commonly used in classrooms and newsrooms (evolutionary scientists eventually come to this final end too), the change of one animal into another over a period of time. (dinosaurs to birds, ape to people). This kind of evolution has not been proved. Natural selection we do see, but is is not a change of genetic material only the loss of genetic material. The creatures already had that gene, a new one wasn't created because they needed it.

"All" means everybody, ever. What about the first people to evolve from apes, they wouldn't be under the curse of adam since they didn't come from him? Where did they end up when they died? Why did they die if they didn't disobey God? Why would they intermarry with people they would have known were cursed by God? Ape-people, "Why did you come out of that great garden?" "Why is there a flaming sword there now?"
Remember God has not made the injunction against marrying your own sister yet.

God tells us how He created Adam in chapter 2: from the dust of the ground-not apes.
Ok your right about Able, he probably died before he married. smile.gif
Genesis 5:4 " And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters" So we know that Adam had daughters

Genesis 5:3 says that adam lived 130 years before he had Seth. How many people can show up in 130 years? If the people in the land of Nod were not related to Cain and Able what did Cain have to fear from them? Would you kill someone because he killed his own brother that wasn't related to you? No, you might not let him live in your community but you wouldn't kill him. What is exile to Cain? He was a farmer (as far as livestock anyway) and could take care of himself.

If God's evening and morning are different from what we have now, then what was the point of saying them? Why didn't He say it took Him 6000 years to do all this? That seems like such a small thing to hide. Even if you add thousands of years though, it is not enough for evolution to take place as scientist describe it now. They are talking about billion of years if not trillion.

Lets use literature for a moment. You can't use an analogy before you explain what the analogy is refering to. (i.e. evening and morning and day) Otherwise the analogy is pointless and people won't understand. Do you honestly think God would write it in such a way as to confuse people and give them the wrong idea? Why can't a day mean a 24 hour period of time? I am not going against ANY scientific law to say that it is. Do you also question how many days Jonah was in the Belly of the wale? Or how many days Jesus was buried? Or how long the sun stood still for Joshua? Why is this the only passage where people say that a day might mean something other than a 24 hour period of time?

As for people in america being taller: what statistic is that from?
more importantly, again with a genetics lesson, smile.gif America has become more integrated (i mean as far as having many different types of people from all over the world) then it used to be when it was founded. With all these different people groups, who have varying hights, nose shapes, hair color, etc., you will get a change in the physical characteristics of the average american person. Before this, people stayed mainly within their own country often marrying people from their own community thus not letting any other genetic material (from other people) in. Hight is also one of those characteristics that is not dominant or recessive, the two genes with hight combine to find something in between. However, they are still humans not something else.

The problem with averages is, if there is even 1 person out there who is over 7ft tall then that distorts the average to be higher.

I believe evolution does directly contradict the message of the Bible. It negates the idea of "all have sinned" and thus the possibilty that I need a savior. It also makes the Bible look untrustworthy. The Bible says "days". Everybody knows what a day is, including evolutionary scientists. If we say it is something other than a day it makes christians look like they don't trust their own bible. Who wants to believe a God who doesn't say what He means?
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birddog20002001 
Posted: 25-Jul-2004, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE
Im tired of people saying that I am the one putting God in a box



QUOTE
God is HUGE. He existed before everything. I can't put Him in a box of my limited understanding


I don't believe that Elspeth was saying that you put God in a box but that he was beyond her comprehension


QUOTE
The problem with averages is, if there is even 1 person out there who is over 7ft tall then that distorts the average to be higher


Averages don't quite work like that, there is a rule of self correcting error for those that are over 7' tall there are those that are below 4'. Therefore still giving an "accurate" average.


QUOTE
I believe evolution does directly contradict the message of the Bible. It negates the idea of "all have sinned" and thus the possibilty that I need a savior. It also makes the Bible look untrustworthy.


I really have to disagree with you there at no time does evoloution say that original sin does not exist nor is it not important. It merely states that lifeforms have a problem and seek to overcome that problem those that do continue on to reproduce.

Personally I have been working a a different theory of evoloution that can work in conjunction with Darvins survival of the fittest. I call it the theory of random selection, it is a variant on Chaos theory and may have been thought up already.

Say there are two colonies of monkeys. Herd A and herd B. Well herd A lives five miles away from B on the coast and one day a tidal wave comes up and wipes out herd A were they less advanced than herd B? On the contrary they actually could have been more advanced, equal, or possibly less that really doesn't matter. They just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. So their line is ended and B continues on to reproduce.




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reddrake79 
Posted: 26-Jul-2004, 12:45 AM
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I had fortgotten about the self correcting rule of averages, thanks for the reminder. smile.gif
I am still curious about the statistic though.

I apologize to Elspeth for taking it peronally, I am used to people saying that phrase directly to me and automatically assumed that was the intent here.

Evolution, by eliminating the fact that everyone comes from Adam does eliminate the idea of original sin. If I did not decend from Adam, the man that sinned first, then do I have to worry about orginal sin? If I do need to worry about it, why? I'm not related to Adam. If evolution is true then other apes (not related to Adam) could have evolved into men. Why would they be held to account for what some other man they don't even know has done? That doesn't sound like a very fair God. Besides, humans cannot mate with apes so how would a half-human (most hybrids in nature are sterile anyway: mules for instance) creature reproduce even if it wasn't rejected by the pack? If for some reason it could mate why didn't it keep that ability because that would ensure the survival of the creature? The ability to mate with more than one group of animals would gaurantee the survival of the genetic material.

Birddog, you pointed out one of the major problems with Conventional evolution, however I dont think it will jive with the survival of the fitest. Because this means that just because group A is more fit than group B they won't neccessarily survive. There are also many creatures that defy evolutionary thinking. Giraffes are a good example. Without all thier biological systems that they have now they would never have survived the first generation. Check out a video by Dr. Job Martin Amazing Animals that Defy Evolution
Professional scientists already disagree with Darwin on a wide range of things, so don't be limited to what Darwin said. Thus comes the problem with science. What is "known" to be scientific fact for one generation (the sound berrier is unbreakable, man can never get to mars, the sun revolves around the earth, there is nothing smaller than an atom, man evolved from apes) is not necessarily true.

We cannot look at what man thinks and adjust the Bible to fit that, because man is fallible and not everything that we think is correct (racism for example). We must take the Bible and adjust man's thinking to fit that. In Martin Luther's day they had a different problem, theologians were trying to cram the six days of creation into one day because God is all powerful. Could God have created in 1 day? yes. Could God have created in 6000 years? yes. Did He? According to His word, no. God says He did it in six days and I believe him. It is faith. Faith that God said the truth and man has come up with an erred idea that has no physical proof. I have faith that God would not try to mislead or cause me confusion. I would not want to follow a god that wanted me confused or ignorant.
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Elspeth 
Posted: 26-Jul-2004, 09:19 AM
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Evolution in its pure sense is an alteration of a species. However, people have used the term evolution incorrectly for so long now that it also means ape to man in many's mind. One of my pet peves. Like the word gay. Until about 30 so years ago it meant something entirely different. Still does, and yet it doesn't in the collective societial mind. Words - can't communicate with them, can't communicate without them.

And just for the record. I do not belive man and apes were ever related in any way. But I also do not belive that the Bible tells us all. It is a guideline with many mysteries purposely left. If there were no mysteries, then I would not need to go to God, trust in God. But that is me. I like having some mystery in the Bible.

I too, like birddog, have always leaned towards a Creation based natural selection view of the Universe. I believe God created man. I like to keep open some possiblities though. And as I said, if there were others - who knows maybe God created another planet as well and brought some of those people here - anyway, by the time people intermarried generations later, all would claim their inheritence back to Adam. I have a friend who it would appear I am completely unrelated to, and yet, if I go back far enough we share a grandfather eight generations back.

All I am trying to say is I don't like to go with a rigid interpretation of the Bible. Others do, and that's OK, just don't tell me mine is wrong for none of us knows completely for sure. That is God's department.

And, BTW I as well am at the diminutive end of the height scale. Short people ROCK!!!
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Elspeth 
Posted: 26-Jul-2004, 09:21 AM
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I think what I am trying to say is that I don't belive the Bible is inaccurate, I just think that sometimes we don't understand what God is trying to tell us. smile.gif
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birddog20002001 
Posted: 26-Jul-2004, 12:04 PM
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And, BTW I as well am at the diminutive end of the height scale. Short people ROCK!!!


Only if you push them over hard enough tongue.gif


QUOTE
And as I said, if there were others - who knows maybe God created another planet as well and brought some of those people here - anyway, by the time people intermarried generations later, all would claim their inheritence back to Adam


That kind of reminds me of a particular line in the old testament about the Nephilim (sp) that were angels I believe (anyone is free to correct me here I am just going on memory) that lain with woman, and their offspring were giants or "men of renound."
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Elspeth 
Posted: 26-Jul-2004, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE (birddog20002001 @ 26-Jul-2004, 12:04 PM)

Only if you push them over hard enough tongue.gif




That kind of reminds me of a particular line in the old testament about the Nephilim (sp) that were angels I believe (anyone is free to correct me here I am just going on memory) that lain with woman, and their offspring were giants or "men of renound."

Watch out birddog or I'll get a ladder and smack you. biggrin.gif

There is a thread over in the K&C I belive that addressed that thought.
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