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> Accurate Bible?, controversy
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reddrake79 
Posted: 29-Jun-2004, 07:07 PM
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ok. In discussing several topics I have noticed people either completely believeing the Bible, Believing only part of it or believing none of it. I put the following under another topic earlier but moved it here because it realy wasn't about the topic in that string. It's a little lengthy and I am sure that some people will disagree with me.

There are problems with texts written by man, yes. The Bible was written by men, yes. Can God do anything, yes.

I believe in a God that is a distinct entity. An individual, existing in three presonalities but unified. God also claims to divinly protect his word. God claims it and I believe it.

If an all powerful God could not protect his precious word from us meddling humans, then He is not worthy of my faith or devotion. If the Bible is wrong in some part then God did not protect it and is not worthy of my faith or devotion. How do I know which part He did choose to protect if any? The Bible has proven to be accurate in History, Science, philosophy, as well as other areas. Why not religion and what it says about the hereafter?

The Old Testament is what the Jews have believed for millenia. Quite possibly the oldest thriving religion still around. The New Testament is what Christians believe, both Catholics, Protestants, and others. I myself am a protestant. The protestant reformation came about because a catholic priest read the Bible (oh no! mock horror) and realized that several prevalent thoughts about the Bible were errored. This is an example of man meddling with the Bible but the Bible not changing. Most errors about the Bible come because the person has not read all of it. The Bible was the influence for the majority of pioneering scientists to pursue their theories or modify them. The Bible is quite possibly the most famous book in the entire world. It is used as a synonym in the english language for any book that is difinitive about its subject. It was the main reason for education in early america. The Bible is the most powerful book on the planet. It has caused wars, it has stopped wars, Queen Victoria said it was the reason for English prosperity. It reveals LAWS of nature before they were officially discoverd by Science. There are more copies of the Bible than any other book.

These are some reasons why I believe the Bible. The main reason is because God said he would protect it. That is why I use it in my arguments. It is difinative for most religions.

My God is capable of protecting His word.

This is not about interpretations of the Bible (i.e. King james, NIV, NASB, etc..)

This is a question of faith and belief. As is the case with all questions of religious teachings. What is your faith in?

Here is the major topic of this string. Is the Bible Accurate? Why or why not?
This is also kinda of a poll. I am a little curious as to what people think about the Bible.


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Shadows 
Posted: 29-Jun-2004, 10:53 PM
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Which Bible do you refer to? The one today is so far removed from the original Greek texts that it in no way resembles the word of "god"!

The new testiment has been manipulated to gain control over the believers, most of the original books were not included in the "newer " versions of the 1400's on. There are many works hidden in the vaults of the Vatican that would open your eyes and make you real in your faith... I have seen some!


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SCShamrock 
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 03:51 AM
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QUOTE (Shadows @ 29-Jun-2004, 10:53 PM)
The one today is so far removed from the original Greek texts that it in no way resembles the word of "god"!

There are many works hidden in the vaults of the Vatican that would open your eyes and make you real in your faith... I have seen some!

Shadows, I have to question this. You say which Bible. Then you say the one today is so far removed from the original Greek Texts.

So, which one today? You seem to be referring to a particular one when you say it "is so far removed" but don't explain which one you are talking about.

As for the works hidden in the Vatican? If they are hidden then how did you see them? If the ultra-wealthy religious elites that operate in the Vatican wish to hide something, don't you think it would be truly hidden? Also, you called them works. I can't believe you would give these mysterious texts any Devine relevance if you casually refer to them as "works". But you then go on to say that these works would make someone "real" in their faith. That's quite a sweeping statement. If you have this wonderful insight into true faith, then why aren't you compelled to share that with the world?

You mention the Greek texts. The New Testament is where you will find mostly Greek. However, there are actually three languages that are prevalent in the original scripts. Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Were you actually stating that only the ancient Greek texts were truly God inspired, or were you saying that the Hebrew and Aramaic texts were accurately translated, included, and canonized?


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barddas 
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 07:24 AM
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Here is a complete list of Books of the bible. With the inclusion of the 'missing' books as well.( ie Thomas ( which was to be the only book written while Christ lived) etc....)


Check out the site Comparative Religions.com link below

Apocrypha





Full Index

NEW TESTAMENT APOCRYPHA complete index


1. Pseudo-Jesus apocrypha


1.1 The Epistles of Jesus to Abgarus

2. Pseudo-apostolic (general) apocrypha


2.1 Teachings of the Twelve Apostles (Didache)
2.2 Epistle of the Apostles


3. Pseudo-apostolic (specific - by Apostle) apocrypha

3.1 - Andrew -

3.1.1 Acts of Andrew
3.1.2 Acts of Andrew and Matthias*

3.2 - Barnabas -

3.2.1 Acts of Barnabas*
3.2.2 Epistle of Barnabas
3.2.3 Gospel of Barnabas

3.3 - Bartholomew -

3.3.1 Gospel of Bartholomew
3.3.2 Martyrdom of Bartholomew*

3.4 - James -

3.4.1 Apocryphon of James
3.4.2 Book of James (protevangelium)
3.4.3 First Apocalypse of James
3.4.4 Second Apocalypse of James

3.5 - John -

3.5.1 Acts of John
3.5.2 Acts of John the Theologian*
3.5.3 Apocryphon of John (long version)
3.5.4 Book of John the Evangelist
3.5.5 Revelation of John the Theologian*

3.6 - Mark -

3.6.1 Secret Gospel of Mark

3.7 - Matthew -

3.7.1 Acts and Martyrdom of St. Matthew the Apostle*
3.7.2 The Martyrdom of Matthew

3.8 - Nicodemus -

3.8.1 Gospel (Acts) of Nicodemus (aka The Acts of Pontius Pilate)

3.9 - Peter -

3.9.1 Acts of Peter
3.9.2 Acts of Peter and Andrew
3.9.3 Apocalypse of Peter - version 1
3.9.4 Apocalypse of Peter - version 2
3.9.5 Gospel of Peter
3.9.6 Letter of Peter to Philip

3.10 - Philip -

3.10.1 Acts of Philip
3.10.2 Gospel of Philip

3.11 - Thaddeus -

3.11.1 Acts of Thaddeus (Epistles of Pontius Pilate)*
3.11.2 Teaching of Thaddeus

3.12 - Thomas -

3.12.1 Acts of Thomas
3.12.2 Apocalypse of Thomas
3.12.3 Book of Thomas the Contender
3.12.4 Consumation of Thomas
3.12.5 Gospel of Thomas


4. Pseudo-Pauline apocrypha


4.1 3 Corinthians
4.2 Acts 29
4.3 Acts of Paul
4.4 Acts of Paul and Thecla
4.5 Acts of Peter and Paul*
4.6 Acts of Xanthippe and Polyxena
4.7 Apocalypse of Paul
4.8 Apocalypse of Paul - other version
4.9 Epistle to the Laodiceans
4.10 Revelation of Paul*
4.11 Paul and Seneca


5. Infancy Gospels apocrypha


5.1 Arabic Infancy Gospel
5.2 First Infancy Gospel of Jesus Christ
5.3 Infancy Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
5.4 Infancy Gospel of Thomas - Greek A
5.5 Infancy Gospel of Thomas - Greek B
5.6 Infancy Gospel of Thomas - Latin


6. Relatives of Jesus apocrypha


6.1 Gospel of Mary
6.2 Gospel of the Nativity of Mary
6.3 Book of John concerning the dormition of Mary (transitus mari)*
6.4 History of Joseph the Carpenter*
6.5 Narrative of Joseph of Arimathaea


7. Sub-canonical (disputed canon) apocrypha


7.1 Shepherd of Hermas
7.2 II Clement
7.3 Diatession
7.4 Gospel of the Lord (Marcion)


8. Other significant Epistles and pseudomynous writings and apocrypha


8.1 I Clement
8.2 Avenging of the Saviour
8,3 Epistles of Pontius Pilate
8.4 Letter of Aristeas
8.5 Sentences of the Sextus
8.6 Alexandrians
8.7 Revelations of Stephen
8.8 Muratonian Canon (fragment)


9. Fragments of lost apocryphal books


9.1 Gospel of the Ebionites
9.2 Gospel of the Egyptians
9.3 Egerton Gospel (Egerton Papyrus 2)*
9.4 Gospel of the Hebrews
9.5 Traditions of Mattias
9.6 Gospel of the Nazaraeans
9.7 Preaching of Peter


10. Apostolic Constitutions (Didascalia Apostolorum)


10.1 Book 1
10.2 Book 2
10.3 Book 3
10.4 Book 4
10.5 Book 5
10.6 Book 6
10.7 Book 7
10.8 Book 8


11. Psuedo-Sibylline Oracles


11.0 Preface
11.1 Chapter I
11.2 Chapter II
11.3 Chapter III
11.4 Chapter IV
11.5 Chapter V
11.6 Chapter VI
11.7 Chapter VII
11.8 Chapter VIII
11.9 Chapter XI
11.10 Chapter XII
11.11 Chapter XIII
11.12 Chapter XIV
11.13 Appendices - Fragments





* copyright work, used with express permission.

** I have no idea why the numbering system of this work jumps from 8 to 11. I presume that the error lies with the Roman numerals, with IX (9) mistakenly written as XI (11) at the source. However, it is my policy not to change textual information, so it remains.


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birddog20002001 
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 07:40 AM
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There are many books that the Church had "taken" from the public in order to make sure the public could be pushed into the direction they wanted, some of the early cults of Christianity were completely different than anything observable in the Church today , for example the Gnostics. Also some books were removed due to repetition of other books ( the gospels are accounts based on other works and often repeat them selves). Here are a few examples of the missing books.

The Book of the Secrets of Enoch

The Book of Jubilees

Haggadah

Manichaean Creation Myths

The Secret Book of John

On the origin of the World

The Apocalypse of Adam

Kabbalah

The Dead Sea Scrolls (many books)

The Gospel of Thomas

The Secret Gospel of Mark

The Apocryon of James

the Gospel of Bartholomew

The Gospel of Nicodemus

At least 5 infancy Gospels

the Acts of John, Peter, Paul, Andrew, and Thomas.

At least 16 accounts of the Apocalypse

Simon Magnus

and many other, If you look at the names of those that have written the books nany of them are names of the disiples we learned as children and wondered what did they do why didn't they write, well the did and it did not fit with the cannonical policy of the Church.


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reddrake79 
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 09:59 AM
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Why were these books not included in the cannon? Why has no one really tried to make them mainstream cannon? So many different denominations copied the old and new testaments during the early Catholic times times. I.E. George Whitfield and others, yet they include the same books. My understanding about cannonicity is that they chose the books that agreed with each other and the old testament which was already established by judaism. Regardless of why, if God wanted them in the Cannon they would have been. If you say God is just putting them back in now, then we must also question everybody's faith who came before this startling revelation that the Bible is not whole.

If God Loves us and wants us to understand Him then He would not allow several hundred years of misinformation to go by before He did something. And He didn't.
Even while the Pope had excessive political power, there were groups that didn't agree with the catholic Church. There were even those within the Church that didn't completely agree with it (Martin Luther). Yet they kept the same Books in the Bible. (OK so Martin Luther wanted to throw out the book of James, but I believe he ended up not doing that since the Lutherans I know still teach from the book of James).
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reddrake79 
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 10:07 AM
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I still havn't seen any proof that the current Bible we have is inaccurate only that other books were once considered and then dismissed. Just because the other books were dismissed does not mean that they prove that the current Bible is inaccurate. They could have been dismissed because they were believed to be the inaccurate ones, not because of some conspiracy to hide the truth. It is easy and fun to believe that the vatican has the power to completely pull the wool over the eyes of every last person on earth and thwart the will of God, but ultimatly inconclusive. The vatican did not always have the power that it enjoys now.

You want us to give the vatican enough credit for over centuries of deciet but not enough credit that they would destroy the evidence.

However, we have only discussed the new testament. what about the Old? It still teaches the same things as the New Testament we currently have.

This post has been edited by reddrake79 on 30-Jun-2004, 11:59 AM
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Kamchak 
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE (birddog20002001 @ 30-Jun-2004, 07:40 AM)
There are many books that the Church had "taken" from the public in order to make sure the public could be pushed into the direction they wanted, some of the early cults of Christianity were completely different than anything observable in the Church today , for example the Gnostics.

This is always a very heated topic! When we start a conversation about "religion" and use the term "cult", we have already poked a finger in someones eye. Some of the groups I have heard referred to as "cults are: A football team, the U.S. Marines, etc. To say what you believing is not factual because it is not written in this langauge is an assumption created by man. We are told it is by faith that we believe and that faith is not of ourselves. That faith is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. If the Bible tells us that the only way to the Father is through Jesus and we believe that to be true then we show our faith in that word. We are never told in the Bible that we must change the way everyone believes to believe this one thing! We are told that we are responsible to tell them what we believe no more than that. To argue that I am right and you are wrong or the other way around is not part of the equation. God gave each of us a free will to chose on our own and that is what each of us must do and do alone. If I say here is a free gift, for you to have this gift you must pick it up and take it as your own. If you believe the gift to be free you can do no more than tell others hey, that guy gave me a free gift. If you go to him he will give you one also. If the other person says he did not give you a free gift what more can you do but say "go to him yourself and see if he gives you a free gift." We will all make our own discission, and each of us will be accountable for that discission.


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Raven 
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 01:11 PM
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I don't know how many of these books any of you have read (in addition to the whole new and Old Testaments to establish a baseline for comparison) I have not read all of these so called hidden books, but the ones that I have read including the Apocrypha and the Thomas books are obviosly not cut from the same cloth as the books that are known as the Canon of Scripture. (at least to my eyes and apparently to the real experts) The most obvious difference is man solving man's problems (non-cannonized books) as opposed to man being totally dependant on God for his solutions (cannonized books - I would think this dependance should extend to trusting God to keep His inspired word in tact with no ommisions) biggrin.gif

I do agree with Shadows on this point that the Roman Catholic Church has exercised a certain amount of control over the access to scripture to manipulate the masses (no pun intended wink.gif ) But they are responsible for the inclusion of the Apocrypha in the Old Testament, something even the Authors of the Old Testament (the Jews) do not agree with.

Given the fact that the Dead Sea scrolls are only a relatively recent discovery it is not appropriate to include them in works that the Catholic church has supressed from the Canon of scripture and I do not believe there is any evidence to support that all of the scrolls were ever written with such an intention.

As far as the canon of scripture of today being so far removed from the original Greek/Aramaic/Hebrew text, that is simply not true. The Canon of scripture was established by the end of the first century (prior to the forming of the Roman Catholic Church - I know some will argue this point but lets just define the establishment of this particular church as when the organization became official wink.gif )

There are Greek manuscripts that date nearly to this time. Most translations with the notable exception of the King James and NKJV translations come from a collection as opposed to a single manuscript (not that this makes it any less reliable) By all accounts from literary experts the New Testament is the most reliable book of antiquity with the Old Testament running a close 2nd. BTW I do not know off the top of my head the date ascribed to the Textus Receptus (KJV, NKJV translation manuscript) but I am sure that would not be difficult to acertain.

I have a lot of information on this subject as I am an avid student of Biblical Apologetics if anyone is interested in more.

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reddrake79 
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 01:50 PM
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I looked up when the Canon was became closed. This is not about official catholic church closing the canon, but when the books were commonly accepted among believers. The date given was a little earlier than 200 a.d. The early church fathers quoted widely or used in their messages the books we now consider the Bible. The apocryha was not commonly accepted as scripture during this time.
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birddog20002001 
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE
There are many books that the Church had "taken" from the public in order to make sure the public could be pushed into the direction they wanted, some of the early cults of Christianity were completely different than anything observable in the Church today , for example the Gnostics.



This is always a very heated topic! When we start a conversation about "religion" and use the term "cult", we have already poked a finger in someones eye. Some of the groups I have heard referred to as "cults are: A football team, the U.S. Marines, etc.


Perhaps my choice of words was not the most clear. I was refering to seperate individual groups in Judeo-Christian history as a cult, I was not using the traditional definition of a cult that is taken in a negative context such as a secret group with an agenda seperate from mainstrean society but I was using it as A group of people with unique creeds and beliefs and goals. In this context the Marines and football teams can correctly be refered to as a cult The Marines recite the Riflemans Creed They "believe" that it is part of their calling to protect the United States and it's people from all enemies foreign and domestic, and they take an oath to do so and they train in order to make that goal a priority one that is greater than the sum total of their lives.

Each individual branch of the Church including the Catholic Church are in fact cults branches off shooting from the same tree. Protestantisim is the offspring of Catholic Church which was created as a protest to Jadaeism as it was practiced 2,000 years ago.

The Jewish Rabbinical council even states that the first five books (The Pentauch) is mythic history and did not happen.

In Genisis there are actually several creation of man stories and you can see that they are independent of each other is you read it strait through.

Also there is two stories written with two seperate protagonists but the same antagonist a king (and this is from a long memory so forgive me if I am wrong) Abraham and Sari come to a foreign land he tells her to pretend that she is his sister so he will not be killed so the king can marry her. The king sleeps with her and a plague befals the land. The king does not know why eventually he finds out and sends Abraham out of the country for decieving the king and allowing him to commit adultery. That exact story is repeated I believe in the same book mayby just a few chapters later by the same king with a different couple.

Also Moses wrote the first five books how did he write about his funeral?

I was raised by a Catholic father and a Southern Baptist mother they damned each other to hell as heretics every week, I am agnostic.
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WizardofOwls 
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE (birddog20002001 @ 30-Jun-2004, 03:35 PM)
Also there is two stories written with two seperate protagonists but the same antagonist a king (and this is from a long memory so forgive me if I am wrong) Abraham and Sari come to a foreign land he tells her to pretend that she is his sister so he will not be killed so the king can marry her. The king sleeps with her and a plague befals the land. The king does not know why eventually he finds out and sends Abraham out of the country for decieving the king and allowing him to commit adultery. That exact story is repeated I believe in the same book mayby just a few chapters later by the same king with a different couple.

Actually, Birddog, the information you give here is incorrect. In neither case did the king sleep with the wife. The first instance, with Abraham and Sarah, is found in Genesis 20:1-17. The second, with Isaac and Rebekah, is in Genesis 26:1-11.


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birddog20002001 
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 08:49 PM
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Ablimech is the kings name in both cases but in the first with Abraham it says in Gen: 20 2-7 "Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife." God then said "therefore I suffered thee not to touch her. Now therefore the man his wife..." what I get out of that is that he "took" her for a wife but did not consumate the marrige.

Also look at Genesis 12 12-20 Abram and Sari go into Egypt...Say "thou art my sister that it may be well with thee for thy sake..." same story which they were brother and sister. My main point was that the story is a repeater.
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WizardofOwls 
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 08:57 PM
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Just because identical things happened to two different couples does not make it a mistake! As a matter of fact the Bible itself lets readers know that these were two separate incidents! Look at Gen 26:1 "And there was a famine in the land, BESIDE the famine that was in the days of Abraham." It is warning readers that these were two separate incidents! Obviously Isaac did not learn from the mistakes of his father, rather he repeated them! Don't kids today make the same mistakes their fathers made, even though parents go out of their way to warn them? Sorry, I don't think you can justify this one!
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birddog20002001 
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 09:10 PM
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But the fact that the kings name is the same and what is up with Numbers 21 4-9 "And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness..." the Lord sent Fiery serpents among the people. 8"And the Lord said unto Moses, make thee a fiery serpent, and setit up upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that everyone that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live." Moses made a brass serpent and they "looked upon it" and lived. That sounds alot like the graven image Commandment in Numbers.
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