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> First The Episcopalians, now the Methodists
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Druid_of_Ark 
Posted: 12-Dec-2007, 06:21 PM
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True enough and then I find it sad that many so-called Christians try to come against other so-called Christians. I mean if you are not an Episcopalian what difference does it make what you think of their decisions, or if you are not a Methodist, what difference do the decisions they maake have on you? If every so called Christian would busy themselves getting their own denomination in order they would have far less time for getting upset at what the others are doing. Don't you agree? beer_mug.gif


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Robert Phoenix 
Posted: 12-Dec-2007, 10:41 PM
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I agree that its a sad thing that at times that we can't find agreement even in or own religions. It would be nice if we could get everything in order but in a world that is constantly changing we cannot be stationary either. Yes, there can be core set of beliefs for a faith. For the Protestants its the Scripture alone and their individual interpretation. For Catholics its Scripture and tradition communicating with each other.
But within each group dialog, self reflection, and opposing viewpoints are necessary to help us grow in knowledge and help bring about God's kingdom here on earth. A set guidelines that ones faith can go by is nice but those guidelines cannot cover everything and even they have to be in dialog with new information. I still can't find anything in the Bible on how to change a muffler pipe so it. And unfortunately the decisions of other people do affect us wether we like or not. Usually one faith will look to the others to see if their hands get burnt in the fire or not. We also learn about new ways or meanings about our own faith from looking at other peoples faith and knowledge. We as Catholics believe that one of the major sources of information about God is in nature itself and as a result the Catholic church is currently really jumping on the enviromental bandwagon. If you ever get the chance read "The Dream of the Earth" by Thomas Berry. I think you would like it
So its quite necessary for us to disagree. Part of the learning process is to question. What is really sad about disagreements is the violent or negative ways that we sometimes feel we have to go about in showing that disagreement.
So keep searching for the truth. Always ask the hard questions.


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Druid_of_Ark 
Posted: 12-Dec-2007, 10:47 PM
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To learn mechanics you must abandon the Bible and turn to Buddhism and the Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance. If you go within you will hear the Zoom zoom.
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Robert Phoenix 
Posted: 12-Dec-2007, 11:04 PM
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Thanks Druid, I needed that! biggrin.gif
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John Clements 
Posted: 12-Dec-2007, 11:14 PM
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Wow! What a hysterical discussion. Oh…excuse me…I should have said…“historical”… discussion. As you probably know by now, for my money, give or take a few changes. The Druids/Pagans/Savages, (look who’s calling us, non believers, savage) had it right to begin with, being one with the nature world. For me, that’s all there is.


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Druid_of_Ark 
Posted: 13-Dec-2007, 01:30 PM
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So true John so true, btw Heathen means one that lives by the hearth. The hearth represents home and the fires of warmth so when a Christian calls me Heathen I thank them profusely and they go away puzzled...poor unenlightened clones.
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tsargent62 
Posted: 13-Dec-2007, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (Druid_of_Ark @ 13-Dec-2007, 02:30 PM)
So true John so true, btw Heathen means one that lives by the hearth. The hearth represents home and the fires of warmth so when a Christian calls me Heathen I thank them profusely and they go away puzzled...poor unenlightened clones.

To refer to Christians as "unenlightened clones" is a bit unfair. Outside of Pagan or Druid circles the term heathen means something completely different than the way it's commonly used.

I think you have to go back to the roots of the Catholic church. While adopting many Pagan holidays and customs, the church was trying to make paganism seem evil. Much the same way that they made Mary Magdeline out to be a prostitute, although there is no scriptural evidence to support the claim.

In short, the term heathen was redefined by the early Catholic church to mean someone who is without God, savage, etc. So if most Christians use that definition, it is through centuries of the church's influence to do so.

BTW: I seem to remember you being upset about Christians coming to the grove and cast aspersions on Pagans and Druids.


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Druid_of_Ark 
Posted: 13-Dec-2007, 02:04 PM
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I have a friend that was in the US Army and served with honor, he was a Druid but had to fight to get the Government to allow his Dog Tags to list his religion as DRUID but he won and became the first to be recognized as a DRUID in the US Army. His name is Keith Pigg of Mulberry Arkansas. And yes you are right that the Christian Church borrowed from Pagans, even their Christmas is a fake since Jesus was not born in December but in all probability was born in March. That re-enforces my assertion that Christians believe lies told them by so called Tradition.
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tsargent62 
Posted: 13-Dec-2007, 02:28 PM
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I understand that people have had to fight for religious rights. That's nothing new. I know that Wiccans, Pagans and Druids have all had to struggle to get their religions to be seen as legitimate. I'm not trying to downplay any of that. Believe me, I'm one of the most open minded, free thinking Christians you will ever meet. But please don't make us out to me mindless dolts who can't make up our own minds about what to believe.

What do you care about when we celebrate the birth of Jesus? The date is unimportant. It's the celebration that we care about. Just because some Pope decided to have the celebration on a Pagan holiday to mollify newly converted (or soon to be converted) Pagans centuries ago doesn't give you the right to look down on millions of people. What would you have us do? Rework the timetable of society to have Christmas on a day that may or may not be closer to his actual date of birth? A date we have no way of knowing is correct?

We really need to try to keep this a friendly discussion. I'm all for that. But the minute you start denigrating someone for their beliefs, something you yourself are sensitive to, the friendliness goes right out the window and we're reduced to sniping at each other.
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Druid_of_Ark 
Posted: 13-Dec-2007, 02:40 PM
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I simply meant that if you take out the things borrowed from Paganism there would be nothing left of the Christian Religion, your Holidays were Pagan, your method of Worship is pagan, your concept of the Trinity is Pagan, so in essence the Christians are Pagan but they refuse to admit it, Christianity died out shortly after the last of the Apostles because since they died their teachings have been replaced with Paganism in order to promote the wealth of the Roman Catholic Church, which has spent more on its grand and expensive buildings and statues than many nations can spend on feeding the poor, ah wait didn't Jesus condemn the Jews for the extravagance of the Temple and commend the people feeding the poor...just a thought. But this will be my last post on the topic. I am an outsider looking in, and see things that perhaps you miss on the inside looking out. I believe we should all walk in respect and that too is something Jesus taught and one of the Popes countermanded, after all how can you respect people and torture them to death at the same time? The Pope could not answer that so he said "Kill them all...let God sort them out." Thus we had the Inquisition! Courtesy of the Roman Catholic Church in the name of their Trinity.
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tsargent62 
Posted: 13-Dec-2007, 03:00 PM
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The past is the past. You keep referring to things that happened hundreds of years ago. You are putting all Christians in a nice, neat little bundle and seem to think that none of us have ever considered what you are saying.

Certainly the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem witch trials are dark spotches in Christian history that all of us wish have never happened. But they did. There is nothing we can do about it except learn from it.

Your line of reasoning towards saying Christians are Pagans is on a slippery slope. "Many Christian holidays and traditions are based on Pagan holidays and traditions, therefor Christians are Pagans." Way to simplistic. You are ignoring the basic tenets of both religions.

Let me say one more thing. Yes I'm a Christian, but I'm not a big fan of organized religion. I'm not a member of the Roman Catholic church, I've only used it as an example because it's the oldest surviving Christian church. I have my own beliefs, have had some very profound religious experiences and do not need anyone to believe in what I do or approve of it. If you really believe what you've been writing, I suggest you do a little more research and find out what Christianity is really about. I think you'd find they we are far more tolerant of you, than you seem to be of us.
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Druid_of_Ark 
Posted: 13-Dec-2007, 03:17 PM
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No history of the Druids ever giving people a choice of convert to our way or be killed by slow torture because our Gods and Goddesses love you enough that if you do not give us your gold and your souls we are commanded by God to torture you to death. Yep the Roman Catholic Church is very tolerant and follows the command to build impressive sanctuaries and neglect the needs of the people. If the Pope sold even one of his rings he could feed an African village for a year or more. Of course not only the Pope but look at Oral Roberts and his brand of monetary Christianity. Or a host of other Get rich on Jesus, the man that never had even a home to call his own if the Scriptures are right, face it the real call of religion (Druid or Christian or whatever) is to care for the earth and all the inhabitants of it. I believe that there are some real believers in Jesus but by and large the majority of so called Christians are as blind as bats by choosing not to see the truth btu to accept blindly what they are fed from the pulpit. To me a Chrisitan should follow the example of Jesus not the example of a man that is richer than many countries, a man that lives in a Palace and eats from expensive plates and uses gold utensils to eat with and thinks himself above those he shepherds. Jesus I believe washed the feet of the Disciples, when was the last time you saw the Pope even wash his own feet (he has people to do that for him!)

I am not trying to offend any here but it seems that if the Post about the Methodist letting women preach was made by a Methodist that is one thing and keeps it internal, btu if the Christians want to have open forum debate of one of their sects they open the floor for truth they man not want to face.

Even one "Christmas song" Speaks of the Yule-tide, a Pagan celebration they borrowed!
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tsargent62 
Posted: 13-Dec-2007, 03:35 PM
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By and large I agree with what you have said. And believe me, I'm not condoning the riches of the Catholic church or any televangelist who got rich preaching on TV. And yes, there are many Christians who believe what they are told and adhere strictly to the Bible.

Was the Methodist church right to censure a female minister for being a lesbian? Hell no! Churches in general are man made institutions. Even the Bible was assembled according to the dictates of the Roman Catholic church. Yes, assembled. There are many texts that were left out because it did not fit their view or purpose. (Mary Magdeline, the wife of Jesus? Gasp!) Don't get me wrong, what's there is for the most part, I believe, divinely inspired, but I can't trust that it hasn't at least been tainted in part by men with purposes of their own. The only holy book that I know of that was written from start to finish and still exists in its original for is the Quran.

I don't believe that Christianity is corrupt in general. However, I do agree that the way it is run is more to suit the designs of man than to serve man.
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Druid_of_Ark 
Posted: 13-Dec-2007, 03:38 PM
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Amen
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Robert Phoenix 
Posted: 13-Dec-2007, 11:20 PM
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"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." -G.K. Chesterson
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