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maisky 
Posted: 26-Feb-2004, 12:09 PM
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QUOTE (tsargent62 @ Feb 26 2004, 11:52 AM)
Laugh all you want, funny boy, but the biggest terrorist training camps in the world are gone and their leaders are either on the run or have been captured. Can Clinton say he struck fear in the hearts of terrorists? Nope.

The missed missle attack on Bin Laden was a matter of timing, not intent or action.


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tsargent62 
Posted: 26-Feb-2004, 12:17 PM
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I'm not sure what you're referring to. Could you elaborate?


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maisky 
Posted: 26-Feb-2004, 12:34 PM
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The attempt to decapitate Al Quida in Afganistan using cruise missles.

9/11? I am NOT one of the many who think that Bush and buddies deliberately allowed it to happen. I believe that is less than 50% likely. His wild scramble to cover up what they DID know doesn't help make me their supporter. Maybe they knew all about it, maybe they didn't. Even if they were totally clueless (strong possibility given their overall job performance), they were still culpable.

The invasion of Afganistan was properly done, following 9/11. The steps required to make it a LEGAL war were followed. It was not based on lies, like the Iraq invasion. The Iraq war has generated more terrorists than there were pre-9/11. This is going backward.

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Shamalama 
Posted: 26-Feb-2004, 05:20 PM
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maisky:  The Iraq war has generated more terrorists than there were pre-9/11.


I don't know that I believe that. I tend to believe that had Saddam remained unfettered (as all of the Liberal, and most of the Conservative administrations would have done) the terrorists of the world would have gravitated there. Lots of money, lots of open desert, lots of Islamic radicalism, and a hatred of the US (regardless of the administration). We know that al Queda operatives had already been there, both in hiding and in training. Iraq would have become a terrorist's DisneyWorld (and a cold sore on the world).

If a semi-democratic government can ever get established in Iraq, something that never would have happened as long as Saddam was there [re: Cuba], the majority of terrorists (including the Islamic ones) will have to go elsewhere, hopefuly somewhere with less money, less technology. And as long as they're on the run, and not hidden and helped, maybe the Special Forces can quietly "find" them. This is one time I really wished James Bond was real.

Pre-9/11, I don't think Bush "dropped the ball". I think the intelligence agencies worldwide have all been neutered in this post-Cold War world. Without an enemy, who needs spies? No one recognized that a new, boundry-less, government-less enemy had emerged. And this one doesn't play by any rules, including the Geneva ones. Today's governments are going to have to be a bit more aggressive than they were in the last 50 years, or they're going to find themselves being held ransom. We are entering World War 5, the fight of Radicals against Institutions, and this is the wrong time for "law enforcement". If these "cops" had really cleaned out so many terrorist cells, then how did 9/11 happen ("oops, we missed that one")?

Bush a war criminal? Compared to who? Saddam? I have NEVER heard a liberal ask that Saddam be tried as a war criminal, yet they scream about Bush. Doesn't anyone else find that a bit odd?


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MDF3530 
  Posted: 26-Feb-2004, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE (tsargent62 @ Feb 26 2004, 09:35 AM)
Clean out terrorist cells? Excuse me, but tell that the the orphans in Israel, Australia, Russia and other countries that have been the targets of terrorists. Anti-terrorism task forces did nothing to eliminate terrorism. You might find his methods distasteful, but GWB has done more to eradicate terrorism than any president in history.

Did you notice when these terrorist attacks started popping up again? I have. During the Bush administration after he cut the counterterrorism budgets of the CIA, NSA and Justice Department.


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MDF3530 
  Posted: 26-Feb-2004, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE (shamalama @ Feb 26 2004, 04:20 PM)
Bush a war criminal? Compared to who? Saddam? I have NEVER heard a liberal ask that Saddam be tried as a war criminal, yet they scream about Bush. Doesn't anyone else find that a bit odd?

I think Hussein should be tried as a war criminal, but that won't happen, because the Bush administration refuses to recognize the International War Crimes Court.
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maisky 
Posted: 26-Feb-2004, 07:12 PM
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Here here, Mike!!! Sometimes even TROLLS make sense! laugh.gif
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tsargent62 
Posted: 27-Feb-2004, 10:38 AM
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MDF3530 said:
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Did you notice when these terrorist attacks started popping up again? I have. During the Bush administration after he cut the counterterrorism budgets of the CIA, NSA and Justice Department.


I think you're on a bit of a slippery slope, Mike. Terrorism is not new since the Bush administration. It's been going on for many, many years. Terrorism on American soil isn't new, either. Remember who was prez during the first WTC attack? Your boy Bill Clinton. Al Qaeda started planning the fatal WTC attack before Bush even started campaigning for president. So don't pin this on him. If Al Gore had been elected the same thing would have happened. Besides, the CIA only knew that some kind of attack was possibley imminent. They had no idea of the scale and type.
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Shamalama 
Posted: 27-Feb-2004, 11:25 AM
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Ach! Did he say, "There be trolls in this forum"?

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Roisin-Teagan 
Posted: 27-Feb-2004, 11:40 AM
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Still no one has answered the question I posting on board #7 for Americans only. It was not a retorical question.



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MDF3530 
  Posted: 27-Feb-2004, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE (tsargent62 @ Feb 27 2004, 09:38 AM)
Remember who was prez during the first WTC attack? Your boy Bill Clinton. Al Qaeda started planning the fatal WTC attack before Bush even started campaigning for president.

Do your research. When the WTC was bombed in 1993, Clinton had been President for exactly thirty-one days. And, as I said before in an earlier post, that made Clinton realize that something even more catastrophic than that could happen, so he got Congress to quadruple the counterterrorism budgets of the CIA, NSA and Justice Department. His theory was the old plumbers' axiom: Plug it before it leaks. In other words, take care of a little problem before it becomes a big problem.

And what was said about the Bush administration knowing that something was going to happen, but virtually nothing about the specifics of the plan, that was because instead of Operation Shock & Awe, they employed Operation Ignore & Deny. One of Clinton's top national security advisors (I can't remember his name right now) was asked to stay on by the Bush administration. He had numerous meetings with Vice President Cheney, Condoleeza Rice, Karl Rove, John Ashcroft and Colin Powell, during which he repeatedly warned them about reports the FBI had gotten about men of Arabic descent taking flying lessons with no apparent desire to learn how to take off or land. No one heeded these warnings, and three thousand human beings paid the price.
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maisky 
Posted: 27-Feb-2004, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (Roisin-Teagan @ Feb 27 2004, 11:40 AM)
Still no one has answered the question I posting on board #7 for Americans only. It was not a retorical question.

Just because everybody is ignoring you, doesn't mean that your aren't a nice person! biggrin.gif
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Roisin-Teagan 
Posted: 28-Feb-2004, 08:48 AM
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QUOTE (maisky @ Feb 27 2004, 06:51 PM)
Just because everybody is ignoring you, doesn't mean that your aren't a nice person!  biggrin.gif

Ignoring me out of fear because you've met your match?? Nothing intellegent to say have you?? Poor boy can't hang with a real woman...too bad...maybe another day when your not blowing so much hot air? This doesn't mean you aren't a nice person. biggrin.gif

Seems like some of you are real good at debating, but not really good at telling the truth. Why is it so hard to admit sometimes war is necessary and moral? unsure.gif sad.gif
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MDF3530 
  Posted: 28-Feb-2004, 12:22 PM
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QUOTE (Roisin-Teagan @ Feb 28 2004, 07:48 AM)
Seems like some of you are real good at debating, but not really good at telling the truth. Why is it so hard to admit sometimes war is necessary and moral? unsure.gif sad.gif

Yes, war is necessary, but only as a last resort after all diplomatic solutions have failed. My father taught me that physical agression is ok, but only when you had no other recourse. He told me that after I, normally one of the most pacifistic people in the room, got into trouble in high school for fighting.
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maisky 
Posted: 29-Feb-2004, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE (Roisin-Teagan @ Feb 28 2004, 08:48 AM)
Ignoring me out of fear because you've met your match?? Nothing intellegent to say have you?? Poor boy can't hang with a real woman...too bad...maybe another day when your not blowing so much hot air? This doesn't mean you aren't a nice person. biggrin.gif  

Seems like some of you are real good at debating, but not really good at telling the truth. Why is it so hard to admit sometimes war is necessary and moral?   unsure.gif  sad.gif


Ma'am, you overestimate yourself. I ignore the rain, too. Also the annoying laugh of a co-worker. I was taught that it is polite to ignore someones words when they are being foolish. I only fight with those who exercise logic. It is no fun to fight with the illogical. biggrin.gif And I ALWAYS tell the truth. Do you? unsure.gif
I respect your desire to enter the fray. It is the RIGHT of any Irish person to join the fight. I was not making a personal attack on YOU. If you perceived it that way, I appologize. I do not appologize on my statements about illegal wars and political lies. thumbs_up.gif

As for war, it is sometimes necessary and rarely moral. It just happens that the "conflict" in Iraq is illegal. Moral does not enter into it.... Deposing Sadam is a laudible goal. Unfortunately it was NOT the goal of the invasion. The invasion was to find WMDs, NOT to depose Sadam.
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