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> Why Do We Need Something To Believe In?
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tsargent62 
Posted: 11-Feb-2004, 01:28 PM
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As I stated in my previous post, I believe science and religeon can co-exist. I am a Christian with deeply held beliefs. However, I do not think that just because a person is Christian that they need to discount or discredit science. I definitely believe in evolution. The evidence for it is too overwhelming, IMHO, for any reasonable, open-minded person not to accept. Does evolution contradict creation? Not at all.

The book of Genesis says God created the universe in 6 days (not 7 as most ppl say. He rested on the 7th). Ok, I'm fine with that. Where most strict creationists make thier mistake is in assuming that a day to God is the same as a day to us. In the first day, God created the heavens and the earth. In the second, he created light. Our days are marked by day and night. If God created the firmament before there was any light, how did he mark the days? Not by a human understanding of time. We see time as being linear. Who is to say God experiences time the same as we do? I believe that, he, being God, can experience time any way he pleases and, quite probably, in ways that our finite minds could not possibly grasp.

Strict creationists have calculated that the universe is only 6,000 years old. Then how do they explain dinosaurs and other fossil specimens? Astronomers calculate the age of the universe to be closer to 14 billion years old. The earth itself is about 4.5 billion years old. For the universe to be only 6,000 years old and evolutionary science to be all bunk, it would take a conspiracy on the part of scientist the world over of an impossible magintude.

As far as the Big Bang goes, I believe that God set the fuse. A person as organized as God would have known exactly how much matter he would need to create everything. He would know that, over time, the matter released by the Big Bang (mostly hydrogen) would coalesce into stars that would eventually generate other elements through the process of atomic fusion. Once the stars died and exploded, these elements would be released and start the process over again. After time, enough of the elements were created and spread out enough to form the basis for our solar system. Who is to say God did not plan this?

KG, you have said that there is scientific evidence of creation. Perhaps you could share with us where we might look up this evidence. boxing.gif biggrin.gif


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Raven 
Posted: 11-Feb-2004, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (Kiwi Gael @ Feb 8 2004, 04:08 AM)


It just doesn't add up. It's pointless. Especially when one witnesses all the suffering, torment, and pain that people go through (war, famine, poverty, disease etc. etc.)on this planet. Surely, folk were meant for something a bit better than all that hell. Seems especially cold-blooded and cruel when one considers all the newborn infants and children who are taken away when they haven't even started to taste quality of life. Just the fact that folk such as ourselves are digging into our minds to enquire and search for answers on a discussion such as this only serves to add weight to the argument that there has to something or somebody out there some place who has placed us here for a real purpose.

Evolutionists advocate the Big Bang, believing that all that exists is just an accident, a random process. Well, it sure was one HECK of an accident, cos when I look around my surroundings, I see design. Evolutionists proclaim the Big Bang started with a 'primeval atom' (I think Stephen Hawkings has been making this theory popular). Well, where did the atom come from? And the laws of physics, such as light, heat, and gravity, needed for a 'big bang'? Evolution only works when there's something already in existence to evolve from. Didn't Einstein prove that matter did not always exist?


I think that Einstein did say that in order for there to be a begining that their must be a beginner (indicating God on at least some level)

My study of Evolution on a Macro Level has revealed that there is no real/hard evidence for this theory and it is entirely based on supposition besides the fact that it it entirely in opposition to the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

If you are searching for "the meaning of life" and think that the creator might be the answer, I would highly recomend reading both the New and Old Testament cover to cover without outside commentary and see what conclusions you can draw from that. It only takes the average reader 90 hours to do so it is a relatively small time investment when you consider eternity. smile.gif You might be suprised by what you find in your reading as opposed to what you may have heard from Christians or in a Church.

Also as far as making more sense of these writings after you read them I would Recomend "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" part 1 by Josh McDowell - very interesting stuff in this book and it helped me a lot.

I agree with tsargent62 that Christianity and science are not mutually exclusive as long as your science and your theology are both on solid ground.

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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 11-Feb-2004, 02:18 PM
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in addition to that, Raven, there was made a documentary about science & religion in the late 70's in which scientists openly talk about their relationship to religion.. and some of those scientists draw interesting conclusions about the beginning of life on this world.


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Raven 
Posted: 11-Feb-2004, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE (tsargent62 @ Feb 11 2004, 01:28 PM)

Strict creationists have calculated that the universe is only 6,000 years old. Then how do they explain dinosaurs and other fossil specimens? Astronomers calculate the age of the universe to be closer to 14 billion years old. The earth itself is about 4.5 billion years old. For the universe to be only 6,000 years old and evolutionary science to be all bunk, it would take a conspiracy on the part of scientist the world over of an impossible magintude.
biggrin.gif

I think where I differ with the so called "strict creationists" (so called by themselves) is that the Bible does not nesasarilly hold us to a 6000 year old universe only life on Earth or possibly man on Earth depending on how you read it.

I did study Stellar Astonomy/Asto Physics in college and what I learned there indicated to me that their calculations could be off by as much as 50% but for the sake of argument let's just say that they are off by 75% that still leaves us with a universe that is 3.5 billion years old. They base the age of the universe on the calculated distance to farthest star and then figuring how long it would take the light from this star to reach us in order for it to be visible to us. I base their error factor on the history of distance measurement accuracy claims by astro physists and their subsequent retractions and revisions of previous accuracy claims (unscientific method on my part but none the less reasonable based on the track record) BTW my estimation accuracy could be off by as much as 100% but this really has no bearing on the point tongue.gif

It's a long way out there and the universe has to be older than 6000 years. The Bible handles the Time according to God issue by indicating that time really means nothing to God "a day is as 1000 years and 1000 years are as a day to God"

Hope this helps rolleyes.gif

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Aaediwen 
Posted: 11-Feb-2004, 06:09 PM
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tsargent pretty much stated my view. I believe that creation and evolution are both correct. as Mr. Sargent stated, who are we to say that time passes for God the same as it does for us? or even that it passes as a constant rate for the devine? I believe that the eons to us, required for the world to come into being, could well have been the same as the 6 days of the Hebrew text. This would allow scientists to take a micro scale look at the remnants of God's creation process and perhaps even see things that simply didn't get documented. After all, since when does God have to answer to us and tell us everything?


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peckery 
Posted: 12-Feb-2004, 12:26 AM
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QUOTE (andylucy @ Feb 8 2004, 04:47 AM)


Even if evolution is true, about which I keep neutral, it doesn't deny the existence of God. Could He have created the universe, establishing all of the natural laws, then left the universe to develop according to the laws of nature.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

OK, so then who created God??? king.gif
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peckery 
Posted: 12-Feb-2004, 12:29 AM
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QUOTE (Kiwi Gael @ Feb 8 2004, 09:18 PM)
... oi, dude, what is the Vatican's official stance on Creation vs evolution? wink.gif

Same as Vatican stance on priests molesting young boys. Never happened.....riiiiight.
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peckery 
Posted: 12-Feb-2004, 12:37 AM
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QUOTE (Aaediwen @ Feb 11 2004, 06:09 PM)
tsargent pretty much stated my view. I believe that creation and evolution are both correct. as Mr. Sargent stated, who are we to say that time passes for God the same as it does for us? or even that it passes as a constant rate for the devine? I believe that the eons to us, required for the world to come into being, could well have been the same as the 6 days of the Hebrew text. This would allow scientists to take a micro scale look at the remnants of God's creation process and perhaps even see things that simply didn't get documented. After all, since when does God have to answer to us and tell us everything?

In other words we don't know anything. The bible was put to paper by long hairs a long long time ago, and who's to say they got it right. If a day is not a day, how can we be sure of anything?
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Raven 
Posted: 12-Feb-2004, 09:38 AM
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QUOTE (peckery @ Feb 12 2004, 12:37 AM)
In other words we don't know anything. The bible was put to paper by long hairs a long long time ago, and who's to say they got it right. If a day is not a day, how can we be sure of anything?

Actually that is not true Peckery. We do know that many parts of the Bible were put to clay tablet originally comtemporary to the actual events that they depict. We also know that much of the Biblical record can be coraborated by archaological evidence.

As to the length of the hair of the people doing the recording we have only the biblical record to go by for this which seems to indicate that they were actually short haired (unless they had taken the vow of a nazarite) and definitely bearded tongue.gif

Those puting the Bible on Paper would have been the authors of the New Testament portion which was written again contemporarily enough with the events that people were still alive who had been eye witness the the events that it depicts and could have certainly disputed the historical aspects at the time of the recording.

The accuracy that can be checked and verified is what leads me to believe that they got the rest of it right.

As far as the time thing, and who created God. I have to go with God is a being who is not created but has always been from eternity to eternity he is called the creator but I only have the biblical account to go by. However if He is capable of creating all that we know who am I to argue with that.

As far as a day being a day it all depends on the perspective of the author. If the author is God it would be a different way to measure the time than it would be for someone on earth as we measure a day here by the rotation of the earth. As opposed to a Lunar day which is measured by the rotation of the moon etc.

I would tend to think that an all knowing being that was able to create the universe would put explanations of time period in a way that we finite beings would have a hope of understanding.

(whew)

I think that's it biggrin.gif

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tsargent62 
Posted: 12-Feb-2004, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE (Raven @ Feb 12 2004, 09:38 AM)
Actually that is not true Peckery. We do know that many parts of the Bible were put to clay tablet originally comtemporary to the actual events that they depict.

One thing to remember about the book of Genesis is that it was written by Moses and inspired by God. Back those many ages ago, man had what we would consider a primitive understanding of the world and an even more primitive understanding of the cosmos. I believe God gave Moses the account of creation in a way that he could understand and relate to. Moses didn't know he was on a planet. He didn't know what the lights in the sky were. He didn't even know that the Earth rotated around the sun. These ideas didn't come about until a couple millenia or more had passed. How would he have reacted to find out that humans has descended from apes? I don't think he could have handled it.

I believe that much of the story of creation is symbolic. Symbolism is all through the bible. No one can refute that. Who's to say that the first few chapters of Genesis are any different?
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peckery 
Posted: 12-Feb-2004, 12:36 PM
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QUOTE (tsargent62 @ Feb 12 2004, 11:58 AM)
One thing to remember about the book of Genesis is that it was written by Moses and inspired by God. Back those many ages ago, man had what we would consider a primitive understanding of the world and an even more primitive understanding of the cosmos. I believe God gave Moses the account of creation in a way that he could understand and relate to. Moses didn't know he was on a planet. He didn't know what the lights in the sky were. He didn't even know that the Earth rotated around the sun. These ideas didn't come about until a couple millenia or more had passed. How would he have reacted to find out that humans has descended from apes? I don't think he could have handled it.

I believe that much of the story of creation is symbolic. Symbolism is all through the bible. No one can refute that. Who's to say that the first few chapters of Genesis are any different?

Begining to sound like LOTR. dry.gif
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Raven 
Posted: 12-Feb-2004, 12:43 PM
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QUOTE (tsargent62 @ Feb 12 2004, 11:58 AM)
One thing to remember about the book of Genesis is that it was written by Moses and inspired by God.

Actually the biblical account as relayed by Moses said that the commandments were written on stone tablets by the finger of God. Hence the modern saying by insurance salesmen --- "this is not necesarily written in stone"

Peckery, I knew I shouldn't have let you stay up late last Friday and watch that movie. Just look at all of the trouble you have caused tongue.gif
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peckery 
Posted: 12-Feb-2004, 02:46 PM
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rolleyes.gif Peckerys are natural born trouble makers. king.gif
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Aaediwen 
Posted: 12-Feb-2004, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE (peckery @ Feb 12 2004, 12:37 AM)
In other words we don't know anything. The bible was put to paper by long hairs a long long time ago, and who's to say they got it right. If a day is not a day, how can we be sure of anything?

All I know, is that I know nothing
-- Socrates

No number of experiments can prove me right, but it takes only one to prove me wrong
--Albert Einstein

In short, who's to say we *can* be sure of anything?? Only God can be completely sure. No matter how certain you are of something, there is always a chance you could be wrong. There is reason to believe, and evidence to support, that the Bible is indeed accurate ; at least on the history of the time anyway. But what if someone suddenly found something radically new that began to suggest otherwise? Wouldn't be the first time.

Sure, there is evidence to suggest The Bible's accuracy, and I tend to believe that it is accurate in a great many places and valuable beyond just being a sacred text, but also valuable as a historical record. That's not to say that there won't be something come along to prove it all a farce. Such probably won't happen, but there's always the chance that whoever penned the texts were just doped up crackpots who decided to put words on paper.
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Raven 
Posted: 13-Feb-2004, 10:46 AM
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Just goes to show the element of faith that is necessary in science as well as religeon/spirituality Aaedi tongue.gif

I am sure of this though all of our hours in the current corporeal existence are limited wink.gif
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