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> Want To Know, What is Paganism???
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RavenWing 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 21 2004, 07:20 PM)
hehe.. well if they want to call me pagan, fine.. I feel closer to alot of non-christians anyway simply because more of our values are the same...

btw: I do like most of the satanic rules.. I'll just post them, even though not many might be interested smile.gif \m/
I started informing myself about satanism since most people take me for one.. black clothes seem to have a weird effect on people

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1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure that they want to hear them.
3. When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it succesfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with succes, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


an interesting website: http://www.dpjs.co.uk/doctrine.html
That's after the modern Church of Satan btw =)

This is is a good thing to read concerning Satanism, or Setianism.

Barddas - I think you may have posted links to here before.


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RavenWing 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 04:27 PM
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A link would help poster_oops.gif

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Raven 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 21 2004, 04:20 PM)
firstly that, and (starts to bore everyone to death instantly) I think historically you can say Pagan without any problem because everything we view is out of the eyes of Christianity (at least in the western worlds).

Why do you think that the western world would look at everything through the eyes of Christianity. Is it really that insidious or just militant??


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Swanny 
Posted: 22-Jan-2004, 11:05 AM
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In fact I think that all of the catagories I mentioned with the exception of the Mormons would exclude themselves from both catagories. Another group that does not fit either is Agnostic. My point is that there are more than 2 catagorie that's all 

I think you are saying the same thing. You must just like to argue  I'm sure that makes religeous discusions in your house quite enjoyable 


I don't much care to argue, but I enjoy lively debate. The difference in my mind is that "argument" implies anger. Religious discussoins in my house are usually enjoyable because they are discussions, rather than arguments. Shiloh does not try to convert me, and I don't try to influence her. We each know enough of the other's beliefs to keep each other 'honest'. When she thinks I may be going astray she may ask "what does the Spirit tell you" and in return, I may ask "What does your Bible say." We've been doing this for almost 23 years now.

Raven, I'm curious. I've noticed that you consistently spell the word "religeon" as opposed to the more common "religion". Is there a significance to that? Regional difference in spelling such as "Humour" vs "Humor". Just curious, mind you. I'm not looking to peck a fight.

Regarding my own beliefs, that's kind of a tough question to answer but I'll try because it was asked out of honest curiosity rather than an attempt to be rude. My beliefs don't necessarily fit into any one particular mold. Call it "Neo-paganism" I s'pose. I have lived most of my life in the company of Native Americans and, most recently, Native Alaskans. I am a strongly Native influenced white guy. As a child I was influenced primarily by Ute and a few Navaho. I've also spent quite a lot of time studying the spiritual culture of the Lakota Sioux and the Ojibwe. My own beliefs are a combination of all of these.

As I try to explain my own beliefs please understand clearly from the very beginning that I am not a "shaman" or a "medicine man" or a "pipe carrier" or any sort of religious teacher. My beliefs are my own and do not reflect those of any particular Nation or Tribe or group of peoples.

There is one primary diety that is so omnipotent that its breadth and scope can not be understood or appreciated by humans (though we always seem to try, don't we?). Along with the creation of life, the diety grants every living thing with the gift of spirit. All living things are spiritual as well as corporeal and are worthy of respect and veneration. All living things are of independent spirit, yet all are a part of the whole. Just as living beings interact physically, we also interact spiritually. Even hostile interactions are spiritual interactions (so I try to choose my enemies as least as carefully as I choose my friends.) Because all living things are given a part of the diety's spirit and are a part of the whole, we are all related by spirit if not by blood.

The ceremonies I perform facilitate spiritual interaction. They are not "required" per se, and for this discussion they are not important. Also, they should be learned form a teacher, not from written words and as I've already noted, I am not a spiritual teacher. That is a roll for those who are much wiser than I.

Swanny


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maisky 
Posted: 22-Jan-2004, 01:25 PM
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Swanny, I highly respect anyone willing to follow their own spiritual path. As a Buddhist, I long ago split from my christian (various sects) background. Examining our personal beliefs and questioning authority I believe are important in life, to be successful human beings. thumbs_up.gif


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Raven 
Posted: 22-Jan-2004, 01:32 PM
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QUOTE (Swanny @ Jan 22 2004, 11:05 AM)


I don't much care to argue, but I enjoy lively debate. The difference in my mind is that "argument" implies anger. Religious discussoins in my house are usually enjoyable because they are discussions, rather than arguments. Shiloh does not try to convert me, and I don't try to influence her. We each know enough of the other's beliefs to keep each other 'honest'. When she thinks I may be going astray she may ask "what does the Spirit tell you" and in return, I may ask "What does your Bible say." We've been doing this for almost 23 years now.

Raven, I'm curious. I've noticed that you consistently spell the word "religeon" as opposed to the more common "religion". Is there a significance to that? Regional difference in spelling such as "Humour" vs "Humor". Just curious, mind you. I'm not looking to peck a fight.


Thanks for the reply Swanny (about what you be

By the way i was being facitious about the likes to argue (and while I'm at it) which I was using the legal definition i.e. argue my case in court (not an angry word to me but I understand why people want to diferentiate.)

I spell religion wrong because I am horrible at spelling tongue.gif They made me take remedial spelling at Purdue (all the good that it did me) spell checkers are wonderful things if you use them.

Peace

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Jaxom 
Posted: 23-Jan-2004, 06:30 AM
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just caught up after 3 days absence. just to put the record straight on JW's
They most firmly belive themselves to be Christian, as they are followers of Christ.
They belive that he is their saviour.
They belive he is the son of god who died to redeem mankind once and for all time.
If its not in the Bible, Old and New testaments then they do not belive it or follow it.
They pray to God (Jehovah) using Jesus His son as a mediator, they worship the father (Jehovah) not the son Jesus.
They are followers of Christ. Jesus.
They do belive that Jesus is also called Michael (revelations).
As a group they study the writings of the appossles eg Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, James see books in New testament of Bible

However they belive that other Christian religions are corrupt because they have strayed from the teachings of Christ and taken on board Pagan beliefs and called them Christian. eg Christmass, Easter, Birthdays.
if by definition a Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ and his teachings as laid down in the bible then JW's have to be Christian.

20 years of brainwashing from birth gives me "one big qualification" to spout out. And it has taken a further 18 years to try to put it all behind me. I am supprised that it still hurts so much. it has been almost as hard as recovering after physical torture. mind you which leaves the worst scars, mental or physical torture?....- Ho Hum.
Jax
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Raven 
Posted: 23-Jan-2004, 08:58 AM
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QUOTE (Jaxom @ Jan 23 2004, 06:30 AM)
just caught up after 3 days absence. just to put the record straight on JW's
They most firmly belive themselves to be Christian, as they are followers of Christ.
They belive that he is their saviour.
They belive he is the son of god who died to redeem mankind once and for all time.
If its not in the Bible, Old and New testaments then they do not belive it or follow it.
They pray to God (Jehovah) using Jesus His son as a mediator, they worship the father (Jehovah) not the son Jesus.
They are followers of Christ. Jesus.
They do belive that Jesus is also called Michael (revelations).
As a group they study the writings of the appossles eg Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, James see books in New testament of Bible

However they belive that other Christian religions are corrupt because they have strayed from the teachings of Christ and taken on board Pagan beliefs and called them Christian. eg Christmass, Easter, Birthdays.
if by definition a Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ and his teachings as laid down in the bible then JW's have to be Christian.

20 years of brainwashing from birth gives me "one big qualification" to spout out. And it has taken a further 18 years to try to put it all behind me. I am supprised that it still hurts so much. it has been almost as hard as recovering after physical torture. mind you which leaves the worst scars, mental or physical torture?....- Ho Hum.
Jax

Perhaps I should rephrase that. As they don't believe anyone else to be Christians (for the reasons cited) and refer to them in what comes across as derogatory "Christendom" conversely Mainstream Christians ie Catholics and Protestents alike do not consider JW's to be Christians for a variety of reasons but mainly over the issue of who Jesus is (ie Michael the archangel or God in the flesh)

My point being that (see above posts) that there are more than 2 kinds of people (ie pagans and Christians) Just for further clarification on my comment "JW's don't consider themselves to be Christians" perhaps the reason it has come across to me this way (i always invite them in for lively discussion if they should come by my house, which for some reason they haven't for some time) is that they go to great lengths to separate themselves from mainstream Christianity. It seems like using terms like "you Christians" and calling themselves "Jehovah's Witnesses" plus their strong emphasis on following Jehovah and since they believe Christ to be an angel it would be against their theology to follow him are things that lead me to draw the conclusion (although erroneously from your perspective at least - by your perspective I mean from the inside as opposed to how those on the outside may percieve them) that they do not consider themselves to be Christians.

The main tenets of mainstream Christianity that they would disagree on is the Triune nature of God/Jehova and the Diety of Christ which means they cannot worship him as God since they do not believe him to be God.

Sorry for your bad experience. Spout away Jaxom it is your right biggrin.gif I just didn't want you to think that I was shooting from the hip with that remark.

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maisky 
  Posted: 23-Jan-2004, 09:19 AM
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QUOTE (Raven @ Jan 22 2004, 01:32 PM)

I don't much care to argue, but I enjoy lively debate. The difference in my mind is that "argument" implies anger. Religious discussoins in my house are usually enjoyable because they are discussions, rather than arguments.


Mikel

I was watching a quiz show while working out yesterday. The question was "what are the fighting Irish?". The first answer given was "That is redundant". tongue.gif
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Jaxom 
Posted: 23-Jan-2004, 09:41 AM
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personally I would like to embrace a pagan belief structure. the whole maxim of do no evil and love the earth, sounds like warm but good karma to me.
However the film "the Wicka man" sticks in my head. I saw it as a child. (many moons ago) the thought of human sacrifice keeps on jabbing away in the back of my brain.
Modern pagan practice seem to have no basis in sacrifice of either animals or humans. However voodoo seems to still have such sacrifice practices. the whole Satan worship and Occult sects give me the eibe-gebies. I really must learn more about pagan practice.
Could anybody suggest some good reading or a good place to start.
Hopefully nothing too deep to start off with.
thanks Jax
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Swanny 
Posted: 23-Jan-2004, 10:15 AM
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Could anybody suggest some good reading or a good place to start.


Jaxom, we had a thread on this question some time back. Here's a link to it.

Book Recommendations Thread
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RavenWing 
Posted: 23-Jan-2004, 10:40 AM
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Thanks for posting that link, Swanny.


Jaxom, I really recomment "Drawing Down the Moon" It is probably the best place to start if you just want to explore.
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peckery 
Posted: 23-Jan-2004, 11:01 AM
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QUOTE (Jaxom @ Jan 23 2004, 09:41 AM)

However the film "the Wicka man" sticks in my head. I saw it as a child. (many moons ago) the thought of human sacrifice keeps on jabbing away in the back of my brain.


Do you mean the WICKER MAN with Richard Chamberland???
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Jaxom 
Posted: 23-Jan-2004, 01:03 PM
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Swanny and RavenWing: thanks for your help... will look into it.
Pekery: the film I refer to is a British film where islaners in a remote Scotish Isle keep to the Pagen ways and Edward Woodward plays a young Police man sent to the Isle to investergate a disaperience of a young girl. He ends up being placed inside a Wicker man along with various Animals and crops then the whole thing is set on fire. The reason he is chosen is because he is from off the island so will not be missed by the comunity, he also happens to be a virgin. So fits the bill for sacrifice by the islanders. cant remember if Richard Chamberland is in it. Sorry
Jax
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Angel Whitefang (Rider) 
Posted: 23-Jan-2004, 01:55 PM
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First off, being a former Mormon and being raised in that specific religion , Mormons ARE Christians.

A christian by definition is any one believeing in Christ.

Peckery, you can also try www.pagan.com
it gives massive amounts of info that I as a Pagan/Wiccan/Witch have found very helpful in answering alot of my questions.

Hope this helps.

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