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> Want To Know, What is Paganism???
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Jaxom 
Posted: 20-Jan-2004, 08:49 PM
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if ever a JW calls on your door. don't say you want to know more or you will never get rid of them. If you have any questions I may be able to help.
I would say i am quite happy to be non religious in all ways
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Raven 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (RavenWing @ Jan 20 2004, 09:05 AM)
In the grand scope of religions, these actually do fit in the Judeo-Chrisian category.

Wrong Raven Wing!!! Main stream Christians don't want them either tongue.gif They are heritics or cults depending on who you talk to in Judeo - Christianity and the JW's don't want to be placed in that catagory themselves since they believe that Jesus is in reality Michael the Archangel. I think the operative part of the phrase that separates this is Judeo. Judeo Christians believing that Jesus was/is the Messiah promised to the Jews. Anyone who believes that Jesus is anything else does not fit that catagory either.

Being an avid student of camparitive religeons (meaning that I am very interested in know who believes what and why) I will argue fervently that there are more than 2 catagories for religeous beliefs.

To be Judeo Christian you have to believe that Salvation comes from the God of the Jews in the form of Jesus Christ (or Messiah) and that Messiah has come.

That is why it is called Judeo Christian as opposed to just Christian or as the JW's so quaintly put it "Christendom"

If in a broader sense you are lumping together any one who uses the bible as some form of reference for their faith as Judeo Christian that is incorrect as the basic tenets of Judeo Christianity are not met by all groups that use the bible and this includes the Jews as they lack the Christianity end of it.

I would go farther as to say that other religeons that do not use the Bible as some form of reference are not necesarily pagan either due to basic tenets of their faith. For example, I would not group a faith that believes in the horned god or multiple gods with a faith that believes in the god with in or the power of the human mind as being god like.

I think what the Peckary was asking is what the pagans on this board believe. Not some text book definition.

He is after all a curious little critter. wink.gif

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Raven 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 11:45 AM
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QUOTE (Swanny @ Jan 19 2004, 05:06 PM)

Just to be equally argumentative, Jehova's Witnesses are about as "Judeo-Christian as one can get, and it was the Jews that put the "Judeo" into the term.  The Mormons also profess the belief that Jesus Christ was the literal son of God (Jehova).  Thus from a Christian perspective, the Muslims are the only ones of the group that might be considered "pagan".  On the other hand, their beliefs are also derived from Judaism, so maybe they can be described as Judeo-Christian as well????

One may be a "heathen" without being "pagan".  I just happen to be the heathen pagan married to the JW (whew, you ought to be at my house when the discussions turn to religion and matters of spirit!!!  starwars.gif smile.gif

Swanny

further argument from my side Swanny biggrin.gif

Saying the Jews are Judeo Christian because they put the Judeo in is like saying someone is of Irish Scotish descent because they are either Irish or Scottish.

Jehovah's witnesses do not even like the term Christian to be used in reference to them and consider it a derogatory term and use it as such.

I didn't say that any of these groups should be considered pagan I just disagree that everyone who is not classified Judeo Christian would be considered a pagan. In fact I think that all of the catagories I mentioned with the exception of the Mormons would exclude themselves from both catagories. Another group that does not fit either is Agnostic. My point is that there are more than 2 catagorie that's all wink.gif

I think you are saying the same thing. You must just like to argue tongue.gif I'm sure that makes religeous discusions in your house quite enjoyable wink.gif

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Mikel
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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 12:43 PM
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I just disagree that everyone who is not classified Judeo Christian would be considered a pagan


I'm against that too but that's how it is called in western "civilisation"...

"Pagan" always reminds me of Rousseau's theory of the "valiant wild" *sighs*


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Raven 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 12:49 PM
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QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 21 2004, 12:43 PM)

I'm against that too but that's how it is called in western "civilisation"...

"Pagan" always reminds me of Rousseau's theory of the "valiant wild" *sighs*

You Catholics out there correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the Catholic church consider everyone who is not a catholic a heathen?

Or is that just my Catholic friends pulling my leg tongue.gif quite successfully I might ad wink.gif
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RavenWing 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 01:34 PM
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Maybe instead of the term Judeo-Chrisitan I should use the term Abrahamic.


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RavenWing 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 01:35 PM
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QUOTE (Raven @ Jan 21 2004, 04:38 PM)
They are heritics or cults depending on who you talk to in Judeo - Christianity and the JW's don't want to be placed in that catagory themselves since they believe that Jesus is in reality Michael the Archangel.


In term of religious classification, these religions can and should be lumped together. One's own personal belief of what is and is not "the right way" should not be used to classify them in an objective manner.
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Raven 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (RavenWing @ Jan 21 2004, 01:34 PM)
Maybe instead of the term Judeo-Chrisitan I should use the term Abrahamic.

now you are going to think that I am difficult (grin) that's just because I am....difficult that is tongue.gif

Abrahamic might be better expressed as Patriarchial (hope that's spelled right) I just don't think you can pick one group and accurately say everything else is pagan. I.E. Agnostic which is definitely neither unless you look at the websters definition.

Websters

\Pa"gan\ (p[=a]"gan), n. [L. paganus a countryman,
peasant, villager, a pagan, fr. paganus of or pertaining to
the country, rustic, also, pagan, fr. pagus a district,
canton, the country, perh. orig., a district with fixed
boundaries: cf. pangere to fasten. Cf. {Painim}, {Peasant},
and {Pact}, also {Heathen}.]
One who worships false gods; an idolater; a heathen; one who
is neither a Christian, a Mohammedan, nor a Jew.

Neither having the accent of Christians, nor the gait
of Christian, pagan, nor man. --Shak.

Syn: Gentile; heathen; idolater.

Usage: {Pagan}, {Gentile}, {Heathen}. Gentile was applied to
the other nations of the earth as distinguished from
the Jews. Pagan was the name given to idolaters in the
early Christian church, because the villagers, being
most remote from the centers of instruction, remained
for a long time unconverted. Heathen has the same
origin. Pagan is now more properly applied to rude and
uncivilized idolaters, while heathen embraces all who
practice idolatry.


\Pa"gan\, a. [L. paganus of or pertaining to the country,
pagan. See {Pagan}, n.]
Of or pertaining to pagans; relating to the worship or the
worshipers of false goods; heathen; idolatrous, as, pagan
tribes or superstitions.

And all the rites of pagan honor paid. --Dryden.

I guess the bottom line is that what it looked to me like Peckary was asking is what do the Pagans on this board believe ? I must be getting old...I am starting to repeat myself. biggrin.gif

I also would be curious to see what the Pagans on this board believe.... the tenets of their faith.....Aon - by websters definition a Pagan as an Agnostic I believe that I already know what is entailed there smile.gif rolleyes.gif unsure.gif

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Mikel


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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 02:20 PM
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hehe.. well if they want to call me pagan, fine.. I feel closer to alot of non-christians anyway simply because more of our values are the same...

btw: I do like most of the satanic rules.. I'll just post them, even though not many might be interested smile.gif \m/
I started informing myself about satanism since most people take me for one.. black clothes seem to have a weird effect on people

QUOTE

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure that they want to hear them.
3. When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it succesfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with succes, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


an interesting website: http://www.dpjs.co.uk/doctrine.html
That's after the modern Church of Satan btw =)
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Raven 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 02:25 PM
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QUOTE (RavenWing @ Jan 21 2004, 01:35 PM)

In term of religious classification, these religions can and should be lumped together. One's own personal belief of what is and is not "the right way" should not be used to classify them in an objective manner.

Since Christianity is defined by those who call themselves Christians I believe they have the right or at least the perogative to define what they are and what they are not. Which would lead to the logical conclusion that Christians also have the right to say what beliefs fit their system and what beliefs do not.

The same can be said for Muslims, Buddists, Pagans,Satanists, John Birchers, Nazis, Green Peace, Wiccans, Boy Scouts the list goes on way beyond religeons.

Whether you like what someone believes or not they have a right to believe what they want and if it excludes others from being a part of their religeon or club or not does not matter. That is just part of defining who they are.

I will go out on a limb here and say that I don't think that would not agree that Christianity is a very exclusive religeon (it excludes people who are not of a like way of thinking particularly in the area of who Jesus Christ is)

It's not a right or wrong way but it is the Christian way.


Your turn tongue.gif

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Mikel
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Raven 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 21 2004, 02:20 PM)

btw: I do like most of the satanic rules.. I'll just post them, even though not many might be interested smile.gif \m/
I started informing myself about satanism since most people take me for one.. black clothes seem to have a weird effect on people

QUOTE

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure that they want to hear them.
3. When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it succesfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with succes, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


an interesting website: http://www.dpjs.co.uk/doctrine.html
That's after the modern Church of Satan btw =)

Well.....you are kind of creepy looking (dodges thrown frying pan) he he he but I like that in my friends. I mean that as a complement tongue.gif
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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 02:58 PM
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i take it as a complement =) i'm known for being able to frighten little brats away
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RavenWing 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE (Raven @ Jan 21 2004, 07:10 PM)
I just don't think you can pick one group and accurately say everything else is pagan.

I don't think that either, but when explaining it to someone who knows nothing about it, it is a good place to start.

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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 04:20 PM
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firstly that, and (starts to bore everyone to death instantly) I think historically you can say Pagan without any problem because everything we view is out of the eyes of Christianity (at least in the western worlds).
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Raven 
Posted: 21-Jan-2004, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE (RavenWing @ Jan 21 2004, 04:13 PM)
I don't think that either, but when explaining it to someone who knows nothing about it, it is a good place to start.

touche (pronounced two shay not touchy tongue.gif unsure.gif )
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