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> Euthanasia, philosophical at best =)
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Elspeth 
Posted: 18-Dec-2003, 08:09 AM
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I agree tartangal.
We all suffer and we all die. It is part of life.
When someone suffers and we feel there is something we can do to help, then we question our roles. But are we trying to alleviate the suffering of the dying or our suffering of having to watch?
Again, there are lines I don't think we were meant to cross.


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Celeste of the Stars1 
Posted: 18-Dec-2003, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (JaneyMae @ Dec 17 2003, 12:42 PM)
I believe with all my heart and soul that euthenasia should be legal and practiced!! We don't let our beloved pets suffer. Why should the people we love have to suffer? sad.gif

I have been asking this question since my nana passed. (I was in 10th grade) She had alzhiemers. (SP?) She thought my older sister was my mom and my younger sister was my older sister. My little brother and I didn't even exsist. The night she died my mom and I sat by her bed. My mom read her the bible and sang her favorite hyms and prayed for God to take her so she wouldn't suffer any more. That was the worst thing I'd ever experienced. I kept asking the doctors why they wouldn't give her anything for her pain. They told me it would be too tempting for them to give her "too much". Just one more reason I hate doctors.


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maggiemahone1 
Posted: 18-Dec-2003, 06:39 PM
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I have taken care of elderly folks for 11 years on and off. I started taking care of my mother-in-law and it wasn't an easy job. She had to have 24 hour care, which my husband and I decided to do rather than put her in a nursing home. She was in a semi coma and had a feeding tube. She was DNR(Do Not Resuscitate) my husband had to make this decision. As far as her quality of life, she didn't talk, she couldn't sit, stand, eat, she just laid for days and days. It was very hard physically and mentally, but never once did I think it was up to me to stop her feedings or end her life anyway, nor did my husband. We were there for her when she needed us most in her life. I didn't give her life and I certainly wasn't going to take it! She died peacefully at my home Dec. 14, 1996 and I'm just thankful that I had the health and strength to take care of her.

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maisky 
  Posted: 19-Dec-2003, 09:23 AM
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This is a very good, very pertinant topic. It seems to me that with modern pain medication, the issue is one of "dying with dignity" rather than dying in pain. Whether to "help a loved one die" is a tough moral question that we must each face for ourselves. I am glad to see that all the posts are dealing with the issue on a personal level rather than copping out with quotations of legal or "religious" answeres. truely my friends in this forum are thoughtful people.


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tartangal 
Posted: 19-Dec-2003, 09:33 AM
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Maggie, My mum cared for my gran for 11 years. She lived with us during this time. She had dementia and didn't know who we were. I think she thought that my mum was her mum because she looked after her . Despite this she knew she was loved and well cared for. She was happy in her own way.
She died at home with all her children and grandchildren about her. If I died in this way, I would be more than happy.
My mum too found it a hard and exhausting role . She was given the opportunity on several occasions to have my gran placed in care but did not want this.
On several occasions I was asked by the doctor if we wanted to actively treat my gran. (the first being about 8 years before she died) Our answer was always an unequivocal yes.It was not our decision when she should die.
When asked my mother states that all that she hoped for happened for my gran . That is that she went when it was her time , at home , surrounded by people who loved her.


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JaneyMae 
  Posted: 20-Dec-2003, 12:12 PM
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QUOTE (maisky @ Dec 19 2003, 08:23 AM)
This is a very good, very pertinant topic. It seems to me that with modern pain medication, the issue is one of "dying with dignity" rather than dying in pain. Whether to "help a loved one die" is a tough moral question that we must each face for ourselves. I am glad to see that all the posts are dealing with the issue on a personal level rather than copping out with quotations of legal or "religious" answeres. truely my friends in this forum are thoughtful people.

I must agree with Maisky here. Glad we are approaching this from a human stance rather than a religious one. I rescently filled out my "living will" due to the nature of many of the tests I've been going through. Don't want to face any of that. Sorry my family would have to, tho. As I said before, this is such a difficult thing for the family to face. I couldn't "help" my mom. We shouldn't have to be faced with watching those we love suffer. I say it again, we don't let out pets suffer why much we let those we love suffer?



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Elspeth 
Posted: 22-Dec-2003, 01:02 PM
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QUOTE (JaneyMae @ Dec 20 2003, 12:12 PM)
I say it again, we don't let out pets suffer why much we let those we love suffer?

What came to my mind as an answer to this question is from a Judeo-Christian standpoint and therefore has meaning for me.

In the beginning God gave man dominion over the animals. I see that permission to use them for our needs of nourishment and a responsibility to take care of them. So, when an animal in our care is suffering, it is our responsibility to do what we can for them.

We were not given the same responsibility for other humans. I think that us where that line comes in for me. That is God's responsibility.

On a personal note, I would never want anyone to take my life, no matter how much I was suffering, because I wouldn?t want to place that guilt upon them. When we had to put my first dog to sleep, I had a lot of guilt, even though he was old, unable to function and in pain. I dreamed for years of him coming back and was overwhelmed with guilt each time. That would be too much to ask a person I loved to take upon themselves.
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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 22-Dec-2003, 02:21 PM
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what is Juedo-christian? *puzzled*


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JaneyMae 
  Posted: 22-Dec-2003, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Elspeth @ Dec 22 2003, 12:02 PM)
We were not given the same responsibility for other humans. I think that us where that line comes in for me. That is God's responsibility.

On a personal note, I would never want anyone to take my life, no matter how much I was suffering, because I wouldn?t want to place that guilt upon them. When we had to put my first dog to sleep, I had a lot of guilt, even though he was old, unable to function and in pain. I dreamed for years of him coming back and was overwhelmed with guilt each time. That would be too much to ask a person I loved to take upon themselves.

Unfortunately man has the power to keep people alive so they can suffer. My mom was kept around when she wasn't interested. Her pain level was greater than her morphine and she had to sit and watch the world go by. She couldn't even go to the bathroom without being taken and tended. That's wrong.

We have machines to keep us living after our brains are gone. Isn't that going a bit too far? That's farther, in my humble opinion, that God intended. I am a devout Christian with an education of many faiths. I do not believe that God intended for us to make each other suffer as we do.

Thank God for the right to have different opinions biggrin.gif

Okay, I relinquish the soap box to the next fellow lover of life. smile.gif
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Elspeth 
Posted: 22-Dec-2003, 06:51 PM
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But isn't there a difference between machines keeping someone alive and taking a life? I don't consider taking someone off a machine the same as euthanasia. One is passively letting what is to happen happen and there is no reason families cannot make that decision. The other is actively taking a life and that crosses a line for me.

And Aon, by Judeo-Christian, I meant coming from the old testament and therefore beliefs shared by both Christians and Jews.
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JaneyMae 
  Posted: 22-Dec-2003, 07:04 PM
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Yes, there is a difference. I got ahead of myself while chasing me to keep up.

If you have never sat at a bedside for months and months watching someone die you cannot grasp the concept of euthanasia. To me that is the inhumane thing to do. I could not administer a lethal dose of morphine or put a pillow over my mom's face even tho she begged for something, anything. I was the coward. She was the brave one to be forced to edure such pain and being incapable of even wiping her own bottom. She couldn't even feed herself but she knew exactly what was going on. The brain was the last function to go. My God wouldn't want that for his children.
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High Plains Drifter 
Posted: 27-Dec-2003, 06:27 PM
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I have some really mixed feelings on this subject. I have a daughter with some pretty serious health problems. She is wheelchair bound, deaf, and legally blind all resulting from allergies to antibiotics and infections. She has survived a condition called malignant hypothermia which almost always fatal. at that time she had a fever of 108 that lasted for over four hours. She came out with hearing loss but little other damage and that is almost unheard of. She has lost the use of her legs from bone infections, she has lost most of her sight due to allergic reactions to antibiotics. Some would say she hasn't much to live for and that her quality if life isn't very good. Those would question the wisdom of using resources to help her. Those who question her use to society don't know her. She has got a Master of Divinity degree since being disabled and is currently attending law school while raising an adopted daughter who is also wheelchair bound and mentally challenged. She works as a paralegal for a nonprofit disability advocacy group. She has more guts than any other young woman that I know.

On the other hand, at the same time my daughter first became ill, my father-in-law suffered an heart attack at home, the paramedics on the ambulance placed him on a ventilator and transported him to the hospital. He had a flat EEG and had an advance directive stating that he wished no heroic efforts to keep him alive in such a situation. My state law however says that once the treatment is started that it must contiue for seven days. We had to sit at his bedside for a week watching a body that was kept breathing and heart beating by a machine because the advanced directive was not availble when the ambulance arrived. Sometimes our laws concerning medical issues are archaic.



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JaneyMae 
  Posted: 28-Dec-2003, 12:20 PM
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QUOTE (High Plains Drifter @ Dec 27 2003, 05:27 PM)
I have some really mixed feelings on this subject. I have a daughter with some pretty serious health problems. She is wheelchair bound, deaf, and legally blind all resulting from allergies to antibiotics and infections. She has survived a condition called malignant hypothermia which almost always fatal. at that time she had a fever of 108 that lasted for over four hours. She came out with hearing loss but little other damage and that is almost unheard of. She has lost the use of her legs from bone infections, she has lost most of her sight due to allergic reactions to antibiotics. Some would say she hasn't much to live for and that her quality if life isn't very good. Those would question the wisdom of using resources to help her. Those who question her use to society don't know her. She has got a Master of Divinity degree since being disabled and is currently attending law school while raising an adopted daughter who is also wheelchair bound and mentally challenged. She works as a paralegal for a nonprofit disability advocacy group. She has more guts than any other young woman that I know.

On the other hand, at the same time my daughter first became ill, my father-in-law suffered an heart attack at home, the paramedics on the ambulance placed him on a ventilator and transported him to the hospital. He had a flat EEG and had an advance directive stating that he wished no heroic efforts to keep him alive in such a situation. My state law however says that once the treatment is started that it must contiue for seven days. We had to sit at his bedside for a week watching a body that was kept breathing and heart beating by a machine because the advanced directive was not availble when the ambulance arrived. Sometimes our laws concerning medical issues are archaic.

One of my degrees is in Special Education. I've worked with many a student who has a powerful brain and wonderful heart when their body just isn't cooperating. The struggles you and she have gone through have been difficult as best but your love has grown and she is a wonderful person with a very difficult life. She's not the soul who should ever be looked at for the big 'e'. Never!

However, what your father-in-law and family had to go through is another thing. That's not right. This just zaps the family financially, spiritually, and physically. Not right, MacGee!

I agree, it is a terribly difficult subject. beer_mug.gif
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tartangal 
Posted: 29-Dec-2003, 10:08 AM
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QUOTE (High Plains Drifter @ Dec 28 2003, 12:27 AM)
On the other hand, at the same time my daughter first became ill, my father-in-law suffered an heart attack at home, the paramedics on the ambulance placed him on a ventilator and transported him to the hospital. He had a flat EEG and had an advance directive stating that he wished no heroic efforts to keep him alive in such a situation. My state law however says that once the treatment is started that it must contiue for seven days. We had to sit at his bedside for a week watching a body that was kept breathing and heart beating by a machine because the advanced directive was not availble when the ambulance arrived. Sometimes our laws concerning medical issues are archaic.

Hpd,
Your father-in-law was kept alive by artificial means- without the ventilator would he continue to live?
This seems to me to be a different thing to euthanasia which is to carry out an activity which will unnaturally or prematurely end someone's life.
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freekenny 
Posted: 25-Jul-2004, 02:06 AM
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O'siyo,
*once again making note of the 'sign' enter at your own risk* wink.gif
Euthanasia in my eyes equals 'Death with Dignity'...You honor and cherish loved ones and friends while they are 'well' why not do the same thing in their time of need and times of troubled health? I say, 'bless those Angels that are willing to assist us with passing over to the next plane'...I volunteered with Hospice for over a year while in college and I told myself I would never go through what I had to see so many of our 'patients' go through~ That is anything but dignity in my eyes~ thumbdown.gif
I have a living will that states no matter what, DNR and absolutely no machines to keep this shell alive..after all if my body is that 'far gone' my mind is already at peace on the next plane of 'life'~ bye1.gif
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