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> God's Existence, Gods evidence seems lacking
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JaneyMae 
  Posted: 16-Dec-2003, 10:27 AM
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QUOTE (Shadows @ Dec 15 2003, 11:46 AM)
Just to play devils advocate here:

Where did the spark come from? Where did the matter it sparked come from?

Even the most basic and miniscule thing has to have a source of begining!

Put on your thinking caps friends and answer those questions.

As I stated, I am just playing the devils advocate!!! angel_not.gif

Is the universe and all in it an accident or planed?

If "the spark" didn't come from a devine being, where did it come from? If there was one "spark" there must have been more "sparks" in other universes.

I have to believe in a higher power. angel_not.gif

I've also considered that we are just a science project for a higher life form.

Food for thought dontgetit.gif


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maisky 
Posted: 16-Dec-2003, 10:56 AM
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There are religeous traditions that consider the Universe to be Eternal, rising and falling in an endless cycle. Life is considered the same way, eternal. The schools of thought diverge considerably on the question of what happens after we die. biggrin.gif


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JaneyMae 
  Posted: 16-Dec-2003, 12:00 PM
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QUOTE (maisky @ Dec 16 2003, 09:56 AM)
There are religeous traditions that consider the Universe to be Eternal, rising and falling in an endless cycle. Life is considered the same way, eternal. The schools of thought diverge considerably on the question of what happens after we die. biggrin.gif

I do like the thought that the universe is endless and eternal in an endless cycle. I do believe that life, as well, is eternal. I have a hard time with the belief that , after we die, if we are sealed to our family or others we go to a planet where the man who is worthy is the god of his planet and placed on the same realm as the "God" or supreme being of the universe. rolleyes.gif
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maisky 
Posted: 16-Dec-2003, 12:12 PM
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QUOTE (JaneyMae @ Dec 16 2003, 12:00 PM)
I do like the thought that the universe is endless and eternal in an endless cycle. I do believe that life, as well, is eternal. I have a hard time with the belief that , after we die, if we are sealed to our family or others we go to a planet where the man who is worthy is the god of his planet and placed on the same realm as the "God" or supreme being of the universe. rolleyes.gif

You tell them, Sister Reader. laugh.gif
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JaneyMae 
Posted: 16-Dec-2003, 12:51 PM
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Gee, Brother Fitz, it's just that I don't want to be pregnant for eternity and have to live on a planet called Kolob. Can you blame a girl, oh wise one? I have a hard time with counting points for who takes the most dance and piano lessons. It's not eternity through "stuff." lightbulb.gif Or maybe it is...................... whistling.gif
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maisky 
  Posted: 16-Dec-2003, 07:27 PM
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QUOTE (JaneyMae @ Dec 16 2003, 12:51 PM)
Gee, Brother Fitz, it's just that I don't want to be pregnant for eternity and have to live on a planet called Kolob. Can you blame a girl, oh wise one? I have a hard time with counting points for who takes the most dance and piano lessons. It's not eternity through "stuff." lightbulb.gif Or maybe it is...................... whistling.gif

Fortunately you are a sinner, so you will be denied Kolob. I will meet you at the celestial bar in, say, 30 years and we can tip a few while waiting for the next round. OK? biggrin.gif
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JaneyMae 
  Posted: 17-Dec-2003, 10:04 AM
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Smashing idea, sir! Glad we don't "fit" their mold. I definitely don't want to be a Walmart door greeter on Kolob and I know their pub only serves Pepsi pepsi.gif and Mountain Dew along with the O'dools. OUR pub will not have wee kidlets screaming and running around either. We are the only ones who can scream and run around. naughty.gif partytime.gif
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kidclaymore 
Posted: 17-Dec-2003, 02:45 PM
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I usually don't get into things like this, so I'll only say one thing. FAITH. You have to have FAITH.


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Knightly Knight 
Posted: 19-Dec-2003, 10:39 PM
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im sorry you are at the point where you aer trying to "figure it all out" Im at the other point in my life. I could not erase the existence of God in my life,If I wanted to.

Try to box God in your corner, he can leave you standing with your box


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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 19-Dec-2003, 10:44 PM
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well, it is a personal thing *shrugs*
he/she/it never made his/her presence clear to me, and I deny religion any right in my life.


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maggiemahone1 
Posted: 20-Dec-2003, 08:42 AM
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QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Dec 20 2003, 03:44 AM)
well, it is a personal thing *shrugs*
he/she/it never made his/her presence clear to me, and I deny religion any right in my life.

Aon, Im using your quote as an example only. I hope you don't get offended.

I don't force what I believe in on anyone. If someone ask me, I'll tell them about God and his love for mankind so much that he made a plan of salvation for us. To some people it seems very hard for them to believe in God, but for me there was no question about his existence. His creation of this earth and mankind, there is no other force that could have created it. He is Alpha and Omega the beginning and end! It's a personal choice that only you and you alone can make. A person just has to open up their heart and let him in. He doesn't force himself on anyone.

Just as kidclaymore said, "faith."

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Raven 
Posted: 20-Dec-2003, 11:45 AM
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I would just like to point out that the original post hear was "God's existence - the evidence seems lacking"

The call from Macy was for some answers to specific questions from an evidential standpoint.

This has nothing to do with "religious" specifics whether you are a Christian, Muslim, Agnostic, Atheist, Buddhist or anybody else that I have left out. Those are totally separate issues and would perhaps be better handled under a thread called which god wink.gif

This thread has more to due with apologetics - why you believe that god exists specifically and what evidence can be provided.

Perhaps a semantics issue that is thrown in here is the use of the word god. Perhaps architect of creation would be a better name, or supreme being. I think that the first question that would arise is did the entire world and universe as we know it always exist or is there a beginning point.

If it always existed - then there is room for Macy's argument that the evidence seems lacking. If you agree that there is some start point then Macy has an answer that is irrefutable and empirical, because from the standpoint of modern physics (one of the most solid sciences that we possess) in order for there to be a beginning there must be a beginner. (no matter whether that beginner is a god by definition or some sort of ectoplasmic impersonal source)

If you are looking for this answer in science and you know modern scientific thought, you will have to agree that one of the main issues in astro physics today is determining if the universe is expanding or contracting. In other words winding up or winding down, where are we in this pendulum swing.

With out specifically stating it they are implying that there was a beginner. The only science that has any substance must work from this standpoint.

Any discussion that involves the physical world always being here says that everything else that science thinks it knows about the universe is bunk, as the basic laws of physics demand a beginning.

So you can't have it both ways. Either you accept that there was a beginning and there for a beginner, validating modern physics or you deny the scientific method totally and go off into a make believe science that ignores physical evidence in favor of something more meta-physical in nature in which case if you don't like the answers that you receive you simply change them to suit yourself.

In conclusion if you put your faith in modern science and the scientific method. You must admit to a beginner. Denying the beginner denies science. It's that simple and it has nothing to do with any religion.

Denying the existence of a beginner (regardless of what you call that beginner) denies the basic tenets of physics and many other sciences as a result, leaving science at best as interesting fiction.

No offense intended to anyone

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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 20-Dec-2003, 02:04 PM
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Maggie, of course I am not offended.
But I think I am open to the existence of something that stands above all. But as I said, I deny religion any place in my life. I learned enough about religion and church in my life by now and I did study church & religious history quite thoroughly..
Religion seems to have the power to make people very touchy and easily angered. That's something I do not want.
Church is something I am quite negative about because of it's role in History and I cannot see much change in it. It does influence the people and not actually positively everytime. (I am not only talking about Chrisitanism here)
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myriad 
Posted: 22-Dec-2003, 02:14 PM
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My thoughts
*Directed at no one in paticular*
1. No matter what you seek... whether it be God or a god or the druid belief system or the planet of Kolob... apparently you are seeking something. Why? Have you ever asked yourself why you are seeking something and not just content with roaming around as the creatures of the earth, mating at certain seasons, giving birth, continuing a cycle of not real importance, living by instinct and dying?
2. And then, every culture has in it religious beliefs. Religion according to Websters is an organized system of beliefs, rites, and celebrations centered on a supernatural being power; belief pursued with devotion. So whether you be Christian, Wiccan, Druid, Satanist, Pagan, Muslim, and the list goes on and on then you ascribe to a religion. Agnostic according to Websters is one who doubts that there is a God or a life hereafter. Just to make sure we are all talking about the same thing when we are discussing religion.
3. I want to apologize to each and everyone of you who has been hurt by someone who proclaimed Christianity but did not behave as one and for any who have had a group of "Christians" treat you poorly. It is not the way God would have Christians behave and I think that there are a number of Christians on here who exemplify the way Christianity is supposed to be. Look to those on this site who are not judging you and are listening to be your examples of a Christian and what you think of instead of those who were not true.

There is only one supreme being. I am sorry if that angers anyone. This being is probably known by many names in many different cultures and in at least one was called the "unknown God." And this being has many parts. Because we can't completely understand this being does not mean it doesn't exist and because I can't express to you accurately how and why it exists does not mean it does not exist or that I shouldn't believe in it.
Psychologist say we as humans use 10% of the capacity of our brains power. That is not a lot. I don't claim to use any more of mine than that. I don't think I have it all figured out and I am quite certain I understand very little when it comes to life, the universe, and everything. But I do believe it doesn't end with me being the top of the food chain and I don't think that humanity is the supremity. If so, then I will be greatly disappointed, because humans don't have a lot of credibility with me and haven't really shown themselves as a whole to be very stable. Though there are a number of very wonderful people out there and many of them on this site wink.gif , there are that many and more who are not. I love working with people. But I can't wait to work within Heaven.
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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 22-Dec-2003, 02:28 PM
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well, the stance that there IS/has to BE a supreme being is a personal thing I would say.

I do not believe in it and that's it for me. I might change one day but there is things that I think don't make much sense for me. There is a great quote in "The Hitchhikers Guide" which I will add in later (can't be bothered right noo wink.gif )
It does sort of express the way I think about that matter.
For me it is a clear thing that mankind strives to find a higher purpose behind things, in my eyes we messed it up ourselves though.

You don't have to apologise for other followers of your religion because religion is also a personal decision.

I made mine, you made yours *shrugs*
That should still enable us to live together and next to each other. accepting each's believes as they are and still seeing the person. =)
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