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> God's Existence, Gods evidence seems lacking
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Celeste of the Stars1 
Posted: 06-Dec-2003, 04:26 AM
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QUOTE (hilander1299 @ Dec 5 2003, 05:13 PM)
Why is it that those who believe in GOD are always trying to justify that belief? Can't we all just believe in our own beliefs without having others beiefs shoved down our throats?????

My thoughts exactly. Like I said before, I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I believe this subject is in the religious debate thread.


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Keltic 
Posted: 06-Dec-2003, 09:27 AM
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Celeste,

The original post shows that it works both ways. There are always those who feel the need to preach and it comes from all sides and concerns all subjects. We will often perceive those with different beliefs and views as being pushy especially when you are already familiar with that viewpoint. Whereas a conversation with someone with similar views is seen as provoking, informative and welcome.

I don't feel the need to make everyone the same as me but many people do. Christians don't hold the monopoly on preaching!


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Celeste of the Stars1 
Posted: 06-Dec-2003, 09:46 AM
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QUOTE (Keltic @ Dec 6 2003, 09:27 AM)
Celeste,

The original post shows that it works both ways. There are always those who feel the need to preach and it comes from all sides and concerns all subjects. We will often perceive those with different beliefs and views as being pushy especially when you are already familiar with that viewpoint. Whereas a conversation with someone with similar views is seen as provoking, informative and welcome.

I don't feel the need to make everyone the same as me but many people do. Christians don't hold the monopoly on preaching!

I do agree with you. I've also decided not to post to this thread anymore. I have nothing "scientific" to add, so it is better that I stay away. Before I go however I must say this last thing. If you need scientific proof that there is a higher being (ie God, Buddah, etc.) Then you need to reevaluate your faith.

*Steps of soap box and slinks into the shadows*
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Raven 
Posted: 06-Dec-2003, 12:21 PM
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QUOTE (Celeste of the Stars1 @ Dec 6 2003, 09:46 AM)
Before I go however I must say this last thing. If you need scientific proof that there is a higher being (ie God, Buddah, etc.) Then you need to reevaluate your faith.

*Steps of soap box and slinks into the shadows*

That may be true for you Celeste. But people are all different and people have different reasons to believe what they believe.

Some believe that they have been lied to so much or that there are so many ulterior motives that they need something more concrete at least as a starting point.

I for one see no reason to deny Science as I have not found anywhere that true science, when applied, denies the existence of God (no matter if you chose to see an impersonal or personal creator) I don't see it as a challenge to site evidence that would point to the existence of God. For me science only serves to build my faith. For others it not only makes no difference it makes no sense (or they feel like a horse that has already been properly beaten is being senslessly brutalized tongue.gif ). It is just the way that we are all wired differently. Neither point of view is more valid or important it is just how we all have different needs and perspectives.

No disrespect towards Marty (as I have at one point in my life been at a similar point with God and science) but in regards to the intelligent design question, it is difficult to say that we like the wall referenced are not built and then fall into a state of decay. E.G. born eventually reach a peak performance and then gradually fall into a state of decay just as the second law of thermodynamics would dictate.
We all have a beginning in our lives a beginning dictates a beginner. Who is to say there is no outside force (builder) that somehow acts on us to bring life to begin with and at some point when the construction is finished allows us to fall into a state of decay.

I do not think that I have ever seen any kind of scientific theory that indicates a belief (the first step of faith - yes faith is even a part of science rolleyes.gif ) that life has always been. Every mainstream scientist is looking for the beginning of life the universe everything. If this were not so, no one would be looking for the age of the universe or talking about it winding down. This is a fact not an abstract idea (albeit a difficult one to get your mind around in most instances).

Physics dictates (conservation of energy) that the clock did not wind up without a winder. This is true whether we are talking non-living (the universe) or living (the beginning of life on any level no matter what your view is on evolution)

If you are looking for someone to open a box for you that has God in it I would not hold my breath. A being or entity that was able to create the universe and the life we see in it could not be held in any box. If that is the type of empirical evidence you seek, good luck. If you are looking for evidence of the Handiwork of God it is all around you, it simply needs to be recognized for what it is. (then you can get on to the next question which is what kind of god and who's god wink.gif ) It is like observing the wind (I realize this is a little like apples to oranges but it is a tangible example) you cannot see the wind but you can see the effects of the wind. The same goes for light, you cannot see it until it reflects off of something, hence the blackness of space. It’s a cause and effect relationship, if God or a higher being of some sort is not the cause then what?

My challenge would be to show me empirical evidence that God does not exist. Now there is a challenge for you.

Always look for the truth but be prepared, it may not be what you want it to be.

BTW good post Keltic - when engaging in a debate (if that is what you enjoy-and I do) it is not much of a debate if all sides agree at the outset. Marty I appreciate the fact that you are willing to stretch our minds with your questions and I wonder if we will see another post from you here in the near. (I welcome the stimulating discussion thumbs_up.gif )

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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 06-Dec-2003, 04:23 PM
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I don't know.. I mean for my personal stance: I went to catholic schools all my life (one operated by Opus Dei, if you ppl don't know what that is: it's some sort of hardcore Christian agency (catholic of course wink.gif ) which tries to meddle with just about everything). One of them was a boarding school for girls, and somehow I hated the fact that they tried to shove their belief down my throat. (dot. point made)

About Christian/non-christian bashing: People are very sensitive when it comes to things regarding their beliefs (I wish we could all abandon religion!) Being touchy doesn't help resolving conflicts. I would guess that most of us have been brought up in a Christian environment and some grew to dislike it others to be enthralled by the things it means to them.
Most of us probably don't mean to hurt others discussing such things but alas somehow it can't be avoided..

I am agnostic, which means that I don't believe in God, but I don't disbelieve either (the stance of a coward probably). About science and belief or not.. there is a documentary from the 70s I think, which interviews various scientist of that time (some working on micro biology, some one atom physics, some on quantum physics.. etc) and I think most of them at some point state that they think there must be something, and the farther they go, the more questions they have.

It is damn easy to feel attacked though.. maybe we should all think about that.. I mean a discussion isn't about attacking people's beliefs (another thing to think about).

I mean I don't want to be the preacher here. And now I did it *mumbles* sometimes I annoy myself *grins*


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Raven 
Posted: 06-Dec-2003, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Dec 6 2003, 04:23 PM)
It is damn easy to feel attacked though.. maybe we should all think about that.. I mean a discussion isn't about attacking people's beliefs (another thing to think about).

I mean I don't want to be the preacher here. And now I did it *mumbles* sometimes I annoy myself *grins*

Right you are Aon

I like to be able to discuss, feel free to express myself with in reason tongue.gif and have people be able to either accept what I say or try to change my mind in an intelligent way.

It seems more civilized that way. Emotions tend to destroy logical thought processes in us all. Myself as guilty as anyone else particularly if the circumstances are right unsure.gif

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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 06-Dec-2003, 08:44 PM
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mmh I ken..

I mean you all should maybe read the Irak threat... it went quite bad there... I decided to leave at some point because I knew I was getting personal and I don't like it (least with myself) so I decided to leave the threat. It's somewhere in the General Discussion one.

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Celeste of the Stars1 
Posted: 07-Dec-2003, 11:24 AM
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clap.gif clap.gif *Celeste claps wildly from the corner for her friend* clap.gif clap.gif
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Raven 
Posted: 07-Dec-2003, 06:50 PM
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I must have missed something unsure.gif

but I'm all for encouragement biggrin.gif

*Mikel claps wildly also and looks arround to try and figure out where the corners are* tongue.gif

I will look at the Irak Threat and maybe it will be clear as mud then.

I just thought that Macy might have some interesting input when I started posting here in response to his/her questions. It seems Macy either has not checked back as I have not seen a post since the start of this thread.

Also just to point out to those of you who think that this topic is the same as the religious debate forum (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) but wasn't that discussion more along the lines of whether the Bible is to be believed or not or rather a basis for faith, regardless of what you believe as opposed to "does God exist? Two completely separate issues.

I think that most of the people that posted in that thread have belief in gods they just have different frames of reference.

*sits down on rock to wait patiently for the return of Macy*
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Raven 
Posted: 07-Dec-2003, 07:09 PM
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BTW Aon

I looked and was unable to find the Irak threat post....Sorry I am interested,,, and I got to thinking and I hope you did not feel that I was attacking yours or anyone elses beliefs....that was totally not my intention smile.gif

It was nice talking to you in Chat yesterday and thanks for the fife lessons tongue.gif

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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 07-Dec-2003, 07:12 PM
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mmh.. my beliefs are not easily attacked for once, secondly I think I'm quite tolerant. I only am easily by ppl that are dumb and think they know all, or by those that don't want to learn more...

mmh I don't know, maybe Paul deleted it...
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Shadows 
Posted: 07-Dec-2003, 08:01 PM
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I wonder.....**shadows thinks out loud**

Does, god/the gods/ the creator/ the grand planner, sit around and wonder if humans really exist?


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Raven 
Posted: 07-Dec-2003, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE (Shadows @ Dec 7 2003, 08:01 PM)
I wonder.....**shadows thinks out loud**

Does, god/the gods/ the creator/ the grand planner, sit around and wonder if humans really exist?

Very funny Shadows biggrin.gif

(serious look) wouldn't be much of god/gods/planners or founders(if you follow Star Trek) if they had to wonder now would they tongue.gif

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Annabelle 
Posted: 07-Dec-2003, 11:08 PM
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Have you ever heard of the "Dead Sea Scrolls"?

Very goood for justifying the existence of the bible.

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Elspeth 
Posted: 08-Dec-2003, 12:33 AM
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QUOTE (Shadows @ Dec 7 2003, 08:01 PM)
I wonder.....**shadows thinks out loud**

Does, god/the gods/ the creator/ the grand planner, sit around and wonder if humans really exist?

biggrin.gif

And if so does he/she/they/it wonder where he/she/they/it went so horribly wrong?
wink.gif


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