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> Does The Truth Matter, how important do you feel the truth is
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Raven 
Posted: 23-Nov-2003, 06:54 PM
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I thought that this question might bring out some more stimulating conversation tongue.gif

I will start by making this statement that regardless of what you call it there is truth.

First let me qualify truth. I can make 2 statements first my hair is black, second my hair is brown. Both are true because I dye my brown hair black. So sometimes truth is realtive and can be tricky or subjective.

Sometimes truth is absolute. Every person who was born in 1600 is dead to day and has left their corporeal existence behind. This is absolutely true.

What I want to talk about is how important that the truth is to each of us individually. (those of us that believe there is such an animal biggrin.gif )

I personally want to know the truth in everything and I am not looking for a truth that fits what I want is to know the truth even if it is not what I want it to be.

With this knowledge comes empowerment. For example if I am a big jerk to my wife (provided that is not my goal tongue.gif ) I want to know the truth about it so that I can change the behavior that makes me a jerk.

If I am blowing up car engines because I never check the oil and continue to run the engine dry. I would want to know that because it would save me tremendous expense in the future even though it would be at the expense of feeling stupid right now.

I know that these examples may seem a bit trivial and remedial but I think it is a good starting point and it illustrates at least why I think the truth is always important.

Finally I believe as important as the truth is to me, it should always be shared in love and never used in a destructive fashion to tear another person down.

I look forward to your comments.

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High Plains Drifter 
  Posted: 23-Nov-2003, 09:02 PM
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I find that most of what I do that I consider important is in the search of truth. Most of my time is spent on unimportant but necessary things like earning a living, keeping my life in order, and being socially acceptable.
I find absolute truths to be elusive things except for some physical things and those are possibly not truly absolute as what is considered to be truth by most today may be proven otherwise in the future. I spent most of my life thinking that science would provide truth but have come to the realization that science creates more questions than it answers.

I don't know how important I think truth is but the quest for truth is the ting that keeps me going. Raven, I don't know if this is what you were looking for when you posed the question but that is where I'm at today.


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Raven 
Posted: 23-Nov-2003, 10:47 PM
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QUOTE (High Plains Drifter @ Nov 23 2003, 09:02 PM)
Raven, I don't know if this is what you were looking for when you posed the question but that is where I'm at today.

Just exactly what you did Drifter. I like to see what others think. Thanks for the response.

Keep on searching you will find what you are looking for.

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Raven_Whitefang
Posted: 24-Nov-2003, 12:32 AM
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I feel that the truth is a very important thing. Some people cannot handle the truth and go off the deep end when you tell them, others consider what is said or done truthfully and consider what needs to be done. I do not lie, even if there is a good thing at the end of it, as in a surprise. Although I dont tell what it is, I will be honest enough to say it is a surprise. Lies only cause problems, which add up to bigger problems.

The Truth in life...always searching for that truth, and it is something that no one will ever fully know until we have passed into a more enligntened plane.
               
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tartangal 
Posted: 24-Nov-2003, 03:22 AM
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I guess I do believe in truth, and I try to be honest, BUT,sometimes I lie ,It may be because I am sparing someones feelings... Do they really have to know that an item of clothing does not suit AFTER they have bought it? Or that a loved one does not want to take them home?
As for myself, call it cowardice if you like,but I REALLY don't want to hear how crap I look today,or that my conversation is dull,dull,dull.My poor self confidence wouldn't take it. I think that sometimes truth is used as a weapon and an excuse to hurt people, feeelings have to be taken into consideration.


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Elspeth 
Posted: 24-Nov-2003, 04:04 AM
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Though it is not necessary to say all that we think. (I agree, tartangal, I don't think it's necessary for someone to tell me I look like crap in the interest of 'truth') That to me is not truth, but a club disguised as 'truth'.

I do not lie. I believe in complete truth, with myself above all. Not always comfortable. In fact often really, really uncomfortable. But, unless you identify your flaws and shortcomings, there is no chance in evolving out of them.

Now, just because I look for truth in everything and everyone doesn't mean I speak upon what I see. Discretion is the better part of valor. I won't lie, but I have learned to carefully word responses in order to not hurt someone's feeling when it wasn't necessary. (i.e. - Q - how do you like my dress? A - I've never seen anything like it.) In this senerio, I didn't like the dress, but it wasn't necessary to hurt the other person's feeling because my opinion differed from theirs.

However, if my husband or children are being jerks, I tell them of it. (sometimes in love, sometimes in frustration - sorry, I'm human. ) But I am not doing a service to the people I am in relationship with to not speak the truth. If someone is my friend, they will allow me complete honesty and be completely honest with me. Again, often really, really uncomfortable, but it is the only way to true friendship. And the level of intimacy that results is worth it.

I cannot bear to be lied to, even those 'little white lies' that some believe are necessary to grease the wheels of society. When I discover I've been lied to, even in the smallest of things, I feel betrayed and I never again put the same level of trust in that person. I tell my kids there is nothing they can do that will upset me more than to lie to me. As one who has been lied to in relationship, I cannot emphasize enough the damaging effects of lies. Truth, at every juncture, would have been better. For most things come out eventually. All avoiding the truth does is postpone the fallout. And it makes the ultimate discovery of the truth all the more painful. If my child cheats on a test, that is bad enough. If they cheat and lie about it, now there are two issues involved.

But most of all, it is most important for me to see the truth about myself and my motivations. Why we do what we do is so much more important than what we do.

The truth shall set you free.



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Raven 
Posted: 24-Nov-2003, 01:17 PM
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I think where I try to be brutal with the truth is when I look inward.

And even though I always want to know the truth about me I always appreciate it when it is given in a gentle way tongue.gif

I always strive to speak the truth (in love of course smile.gif) as I would want it spoken to me, but it can suprize me what will come out of my mouth on the spur of the moment about myself. I guess that is ego at work(perhaps more exageration) and a flaw that I need to watch for. I hate to then have to find a way to retract a statement with out damaging my ego rolleyes.gif but a case like this will always bug me until I do.

I feel the same about people being dishonest as Elspeth does (probably the reason I am bothered if I spout off an inaccuracy) in my line of work (I sell wholesale musical products) if I find someone is not telling me the truth on one thing I immediately discount much else that they say. I have a reputation with my customers of being honest even if it sometimes means losing a sale so that they can get a product that will work.

I find that people that do not trust me or think that I am truthful are quite often not to be trusted themselves.

Like Andy Lucy says (and I think this is hip)

Just my tuppence wink.gif

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Annabelle 
Posted: 24-Nov-2003, 01:22 PM
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Most of the time I think we all speak the Truth. But sometimes the "Truth" is colored by a person's baggage..they believe it to be the truth...
Annabelle


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Raven 
Posted: 24-Nov-2003, 01:38 PM
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QUOTE (Annabelle @ Nov 24 2003, 01:22 PM)
Most of the time I think we all speak the Truth. But sometimes the "Truth" is colored by a person's baggage..they believe it to be the truth...
Annabelle

Good point Annabelle!

I think for me this is another thing to cut through what I percieve as truth and get down to what's real? (I think I saw Celeste make this point in another thread?)

Slainte

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myriad 
Posted: 25-Nov-2003, 05:50 PM
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A person can tell the truth without hurting others, like Elspeth stated. And sometimes it is simply okay to say "I don't want to discuss it." - - probably not if their asking about their clothes though wink.gif they might take that the wrong (umm right) way. When a person is wearing a suit or haircut that I think looks bad or I think that their boring that is my opinion, not a truth. (I believe this was also hit on by Annabelle and Raven). It is the truth that I don't like it, but that doesn't make it bad or wrong or ugly. It is probably the truth that others will or would like it.

There are in life some certain truths (realities, if you want to put it that way). Is there Light and Dark? Truthfully, yes, natural light is available because of the sun, the moon, the stars, and unnatural light is available because of flashlights, lightbulbs, electricity, you get the point. When you turn out (off) the light it gets dark. We may perceive these two things differently because of the specific understanding that we have of the words. But, in the language that they are written in, they have meanings and to say that they don't exist, considering their excepted meanings would be unrealistic or untruthful.

If you look at words from old texts, and discover that in their original manuscripts they were written in another language, you can look back at that language and with the help of a good librarian and some good books (or the internet) you can determine those words' original meanings. This will lead you to the truths that are written in that book, whatever it may be.

In any religion (if I can discuss that here) one cannot always look to other people to find the truth. As was stated before, many people have views that have been constructed by their life experiences and not their studies. The facts are found in the studies. If you believe in a book, and believe that book was written by or under the inspiration of a deity, then it is the book that you should look for your truths in. If you do not believe in either of those then you must ask yourself if you believe in yourself. Do you exist? Do the trees exist? Are we in the Matrix? Other people can't answer that for you. They can lead you to answers. Should you trust them? What if they're wrong? That is why you study for yourself what they are presenting to you. Is it really worth the time and effort? Some would say yes, some would say no. I say yes. But that is my opinion. And you should decide for yourself.

Please feel free to e-mail me if you have a response that you don't want to post in forum. Click my name and it will lead you there.
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JaneyMae 
  Posted: 16-Dec-2003, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Annabelle @ Nov 24 2003, 12:22 PM)
Most of the time I think we all speak the Truth. But sometimes the "Truth" is colored by a person's baggage..they believe it to be the truth...
Annabelle

Well said! I must agree with this. However I've know people who wouldn't know the truth if it bit them in the rear. I have had students who are compulsive liars. They couldn't tell the truth even if it meant saving their lives. Now, why would that be?


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maisky 
  Posted: 16-Dec-2003, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE (Raven @ Nov 23 2003, 06:54 PM)
So sometimes truth is realtive and can be tricky or subjective.

Sometimes truth is absolute. Every person who was born in 1600 is dead to day and has left their corporeal existence behind. This is absolutely true.


That they died is true. But, many religeous traditions would suggest that they didn't stay that way. So, are they alive today. Truth is indeed tricky. It is important that we each judge truth for ourselves and do not just accept another persons version. It is hard to accept responsiblity for ourselves. smile.gif


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Raven 
Posted: 16-Dec-2003, 10:01 PM
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QUOTE (maisky @ Dec 16 2003, 07:34 PM)
QUOTE (Raven @ Nov 23 2003, 06:54 PM)
So sometimes truth is realtive and can be tricky or subjective.

Sometimes truth is absolute. Every person who was born in 1600 is dead to day and has left their corporeal existence behind. This is absolutely true.


That they died is true. But, many religeous traditions would suggest that they didn't stay that way. So, are they alive today. Truth is indeed tricky. It is important that we each judge truth for ourselves and do not just accept another persons version. It is hard to accept responsiblity for ourselves. smile.gif

perhaps I should have been more specific than "left their corporeal existence behind" let me put this another way. Their bodies are all rotting in the ground. (nothing to do with their spiritual existence) Although biblical Christian faith is that all will be physically resurected at some future point to eternal life.

Anyone is free to deny this or believe that truth is only what we want to believe it is as I know there are people that believe there is no substance to the our world at all but that the solid world as we know it is only illusion. But that does not change what our senses give evidence of.

My point over all would be that if you believe something to be different than the truth (as is everyones perogative and I am by no means giving quantative definitions of truth here) it doesn't change it.

I personally believe that searching for the truth and accepting it even if you don't like it is the best approach. To live in denial can only eventually cause one harm.

I like the attitude of the serenity prayer
Grant me the courage to change what I can
Accept what I cannot
and the wisdom to know the difference (paraphrased by Mikel)

my tupence biggrin.gif

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maisky 
Posted: 17-Dec-2003, 08:30 AM
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This is a particularly good topic, Sir Bird. Seeing the truth is very hard. That is one part of my Buddhist practice that I disliked intensly, that of looking at my own life with clear sight. I did not like what I saw. I could not POSSIBLY be that big of jerk, could I? sad.gif

We each have to come up with our own approach to truth. Some people perceive it filtered through sit-coms or soaps. Some have it spoon fed by Rush L. (A Seriously screwed up drug addict). Some get it from a variety of religious writtings. As a kid, I figured that comic books had all the truth I would ever need.
Go figure. laugh.gif
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Elspeth 
Posted: 17-Dec-2003, 08:55 AM
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QUOTE (JaneyMae @ Dec 16 2003, 05:46 PM)
However I've know people who wouldn't know the truth if it bit them in the rear. I have had students who are compulsive liars. They couldn't tell the truth even if it meant saving their lives. Now, why would that be?

This is a good question JaneyMae. I wonder. Is it parents? environment? a society that teaches getting what you want out of life is all that's important? laziness? or is it sometimes pysiological? A genetic abnormality? Or maybe 'the devil made me do it'
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