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Should we do more in memorial to Confederate Soliders?
Yes. [ 53 ]  [65.43%]
No. [ 28 ]  [34.57%]
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barddas 
Posted on 19-Nov-2003, 09:55 AM
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QUOTE (Annabelle @ Nov 19 2003, 10:42 AM)
That is the only problem with heated discussions is the fact something always triggers discussing other non-related topics into an already started thread...that emotional trigger always carries it's own baggage and is sometimes injected into a discussion of another topic...so hard to seperate issues sometimes...

So Let's discuss Confederate Memories ! Everyone matters here!

Annabelle

I agree Annabelle.....

It's not my intent to hurt anyones feelings... I just wanted to keep a focused discussion. And WW2 is a a different set of circumstances,issues, and can not really be comparible....

That's all....
But thanks for bringing that to light wink.gif


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maryellen 
Posted on 19-Nov-2003, 01:49 PM
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My apologies. It is not my intent to go off subject. When previous generalities were being put forth, I think they should be applicable in other situations or considered invalid. Discussing how we (or other countries) treat other wars may lend insight to the question about how the Confederate soldiers should be treated. I don't think the US is the only one with this underlying problem.


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barddas 
Posted on 19-Nov-2003, 03:58 PM
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Fair enough....
as long as it loops back to the original topic, so that it doesn't get too far out of memory... cool.gif


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Annabelle 
Posted on 19-Nov-2003, 11:26 PM
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The south had some of the best military stategist during the war...VMI where most military men trained were known for their tactical theories during this time period.

My Great Uncle, General John B. Gordon rode for the Confederacy...he was a Capt of a calvary unit origionally from Ga, Tenn and Northern Al and later to be called "The Raccoon Roughs" they were mostly mountain men.

He ultimately became one of Lee's 12 Generals..and became note worthy after the Battle of Appomattox. After the war he became a Senator for the state of Ga.

Up around Round Oak, Ga which is North of Macon, you can still find old Bullets in the Trees around the Methodist and Bapt churches from the Civil War...

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Elspeth 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 07:06 AM
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Actually, on the first page, I did reference WWII, comparing fighting for slavery to fighting for all that Nazism represented. And just as I don't think most Confederates fought to preserve slavery, I don't believe most Germans fought to promote the atrocities perpetrated by the Nazi leadership.

There seems to be two questions on the table here. One is should the soldiers be honored. Most every post says yes. The second is the more difficult. It is should the ?ideals? of the Confederacy be preserved by keeping the names and displaying the flag in public places, etc.

This, to me, is the stickier subject. And I can?t help question ? is there not a comparison to WWII? Is the Confederate flag to the descendent of a slave as hideous as is a swastika to a descendent of the Holocaust? If the answer is no, then it?s about heritage. If the answer is yes, then there in lies the problem.

I do understand those in the south resenting a handful that wish to change their history. But putting myself in other shoes, if I had grown up hearing stories of my ancestors being enslaved and abused, I wouldn?t want to walk into my county courthouse and be confronted by the flag of those who condoned such actions.

It?s a sticky one. I think every soldier who sacrifices should be honored. But I?m not sure every culture should be. Remembered yes - kept in the history books yes - but not honored.


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Raven_Whitefang
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 07:39 AM
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Being a "Suthrener" my self as I know alot of you others are and (possibly) having family from the Civil War era and having them basically wiped off the page would be seriously F***** up. Yes, things then happened for wrong ends, and yes, most of the soldiers that fought were there to uphold states rights, and yes others were there because of other motives. I believe that right or wrong, it is in the Heart of the person honoring whomever they choose to is the right thing to do. I know that for myself to not honor the ones there for the right reasons would be like denying myself of who I am, and trying to hide the fact that I am from the South.
               
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barddas 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 09:13 AM
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QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 20 2003, 08:06 AM)


I do understand those in the south resenting a handful that wish to change their history. But putting myself in other shoes, if I had grown up hearing stories of my ancestors being enslaved and abused, I wouldn?t want to walk into my county courthouse and be confronted by the flag of those who condoned such actions.


I see your point Elspeth.... But it has happened throughout history..I'm not saying it is right. But, it is a fact. What about the Scottish folks that were removed from thier country by the English during the Clearences, same with the Irish and so on.... The Irish got Slack in this country up until the early 20th century. Or why don't Christians show resentment to Itallians???? Italy was home of the Roman Empire which we all know persicuted Christians... Do we Change the Name of the Colosium(sp) because Christians were used as play toys for Roman entertainment?????

If we start changing the names of a school to be PC, will it ever stop???? Just because the name of a building is changed.... it doesn't fix the problem....
We as a community, town, country can only do that.... And unforntunately, most people are not like all of us here... We think and use our brains....Many people just mearly exist....( not all but many...) wink.gif
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Elspeth 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 09:24 AM
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Being a Northerner and as close to impartial as any American can be, I am finding this thread interesting. We have no family tales of CW heroes. My Anabaptist ancestors didn't do war and the other ones were never talked about.

I would venture to guess from the standpoint of most northerners, the Civil War is a 4 year period they read about in history books and not much else.

So, I find it fascinating to see the subject still elicits such passionate responses in the descendents of those who fought for the South. And as one who works with words, I can?t help but notice the difference in the terminologies. I call it the Civil War for that is what I was taught. Many others have referred to it as the War Between the States, the War of Northern Aggression and I forget if there are others. It appears even after almost 150 years the bitterness still persists. I knew that was the case in the first half of the last century. I guess I am surprised that it is still true now, considering we are not only a national society but bordering on a global one.

And I have to wonder if this is a function not so much of the war itself as it is the horrendous mistakes in ?reconstruction? later. The war, I think, we could have overcome if Lincoln had lived to fulfill his dream of welcoming the southerners back into the fold as brothers. Putting behind and moving on. However, he didn?t live and those who were responsible for policy after his death wanted to make the south ?pay?. And so almost 150 years later the division still persists.

Interesting that the policies of reconstruction were established about the same time as the policies for Indian Affairs. Washington blew them both. Not one of our most glorious periods in history.
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andylucy 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 09:27 AM
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QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 20 2003, 06:06 AM)
Is the Confederate flag to the descendent of a slave as hideous as is a swastika to a descendent of the Holocaust?



Hmmmm. Interesting point, Elspeth. thumbs_up.gif I think that there might be something of a time factor involved here. There are still people alive who remember the death camps of the Nazis. There are no ex-slaves left alive, no children of ex-slaves (born after slavery) and precious few grandchildren of ex-slaves. There is no living connection (as anthropologists term it) between the American black population today and slavery, in spite of the rumblings of social agitators.

Should the soldiers of the Confederacy be honored? Absolutely. They fought for freedom from what they perceived as foreign intrusion. Had they succeeded, Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee would be as revered as Thomas Jefferson and George Washington (I didn't mention that earlier unpleasantness of the 1770's biggrin.gif ).

Should everything they stood for be honored and cherished? Of course not. I say take what was good from the culture of the Old South (politeness, cooking, music, literature, etc) and leave behind the bad (slavery, rigid class structure). If someone wants to fly the Stars and Bars, let 'em. If they want to fly the Bonny Blue Flag. Let 'em. Everyone, and I mean everyone, should be able to take pride in their ancestors, even if they may have stood then for something not socially acceptable today. wink.gif [Incidentally, Elspeth, I know that you were not implying this in your post. I just got on a ranting roll. Sorry.]

Just my tuppence.

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Elspeth 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE (barddas @ Nov 20 2003, 09:13 AM)
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 20 2003, 08:06 AM)


I do understand those in the south resenting a handful that wish to change their history. But putting myself in other shoes, if I had grown up hearing stories of my ancestors being enslaved and abused, I wouldn?t want to walk into my county courthouse and be confronted by the flag of those who condoned such actions.


I see your point Elspeth.... But it has happened throughout history..I'm not saying it is right. But, it is a fact. What about the Scottish folks that were removed from thier country by the English during the Clearences, same with the Irish and so on.... The Irish got Slack in this country up until the early 20th century. Or why don't Christians show resentment to Itallians???? Italy was home of the Roman Empire which we all know persicuted Christians... Do we Change the Name of the Colosium(sp) because Christians were used as play toys for Roman entertainment?????

If we start changing the names of a school to be PC, will it ever stop???? Just because the name of a building is changed.... it doesn't fix the problem....
We as a community, town, country can only do that.... And unforntunately, most people are not like all of us here... We think and use our brains....Many people just mearly exist....( not all but many...) wink.gif

I guess the visual I have is in walking into a courthouse that is displaying a Confederate flag. The point is it is a US government building in 2003, not a Confederate one in 1861. And the US government is supposed to represent all under one flag.
There is still all the room in the world for individuals to honor or celebrate their heritage, just not in a place that is supposed to be representative of all.

It's a sticky subject for sure. If it weren't there would be no debate.
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andylucy 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 20 2003, 08:24 AM)


And I have to wonder if this is a function not so much of the war itself as it is the horrendous mistakes in ?reconstruction? later. The war, I think, we could have overcome if Lincoln had lived to fulfill his dream of welcoming the southerners back into the fold as brothers. Putting behind and moving on. However, he didn?t live and those who were responsible for policy after his death wanted to make the south ?pay?. And so almost 150 years later the division still persists.

Interesting that the policies of reconstruction were established about the same time as the policies for Indian Affairs. Washington blew them both. Not one of our most glorious periods in history.



I am never a fan of "what if" history, but I feel that you are right, Elspeth. If Lincoln's wishes had been carried out, the whole carpetbagger era could have been avoided.

And don't get me started on what the gov't did (does) to Native Americans. sad.gif

Just my tuppence

Andy
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Elspeth 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 09:45 AM
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QUOTE (andylucy @ Nov 20 2003, 09:27 AM)
I think that there might be something of a time factor involved here. There are still people alive who remember the death camps of the Nazis. There are no ex-slaves left alive, no children of ex-slaves (born after slavery) and precious few grandchildren of ex-slaves. There is no living connection (as anthropologists term it) between the American black population today and slavery, in spite of the rumblings of social agitators.


Interesting point back Andy. wink.gif
I would have agreed with you earlier, but as I just posted, it is interesting how much passion this subject still elicits in those whose ancestors lived through the war and reconstruction. So, I have to wonder if the descendents of the slave population do not feel the same passionate response.

Oh, if life were easy...... I'm moving to Mayberry...... Oh, wait, they had a Confederate cannon! It's following me even in my escapist fantasies!
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barddas 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 09:46 AM
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good points everyone!!!!

My family is from Northern Kentucky. From there it branches to further S.KY, and to Penn. and Virginia. There was never really any talk of north or south ( sounds like a movie??!!!) in my Gparents house... except with Gettysburg. My Grandfathers, Great Grandfather ( I believe or GG, don't remember off hand) settled and established Gettysburg. His name was Samuel Gettys and he opened a Tavern in Adams County, Penn. Which is now historic Gettysburg.

And the reason I call it the war between the states is "Civil War' to me sounds like a couple of chaps smacking one another in the face with gloves saying, "take that you Yankee", "take that you southerner".... War to me is no civil.... I know different meaning but that's how my GPaw, Gettys refered to it... the few times we talked about it....
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Elspeth 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 09:50 AM
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I agree! Civil War is definately an oxy-moron! Good point 'old fool'.
They should have settled it with two pairs of gloves.
Or as Lincoln did the one time he was challenged to a duel. He chose cow patties at ten paces.
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andylucy 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 20 2003, 08:50 AM)

Or as Lincoln did the one time he was challenged to a duel. He chose cow patties at ten paces.

What a crappy way to settle a matter of honor!! laugh.gif Is that in the Code Duello?

(Ducking behind cover before the rotten tomatoes and cabbages start flying.)

I agree with y'all. War is never civil. War is rude, violent and nasty. That is what it is for. Hardly civil.

One of the best euphemisms I've heard for the conflict in question is "The Late Unpleasantness." It is elegant yet subtle and understated. thumbs_up.gif While it may be confusing elsewhere, say that in my neck of the woods, and everyone will know what you are referring to.

And Barddas, as with you, there was never any mention of the War, per se, in my family, but the fallout persisted in the form of regionalism. You know, you can't trust Yankees. Yankees are always rude. Yankees think they are so much better than us. You should have seen their faces when I told them I was marrying a Yankee, and a Catholic at that. Heresy! wink.gif

Just my tuppence.

Andy
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