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Should we do more in memorial to Confederate Soliders?
Yes. [ 53 ]  [65.43%]
No. [ 28 ]  [34.57%]
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Elspeth 
Posted on 14-Nov-2003, 09:51 AM
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But as they say, history is written by the victors.

One of the best classes I took in college was an Honors History class were we read two essays, each written about a single even but written from opposing views. Sometimes the same 'facts' were used to prove opposite sides of the case. wink.gif

Paula's right, all words are biased - written, spoken and typed. It is impossible to present the entire picture of anything; only pieces and those pieces have to be sewed together to make a collage. Like taking a photograph, then tearing it into pieces, taping it back together and trying to compare it to the original landscape. It was only a one-dimensional facsimile to begin with and now it's a pieced and patched one. That?s the best we get. Even if we had been there, we would have been experiencing only our tiny corner of the world and wouldn?t have any better perspective on the whole than we do in hindsight.

Makes the whole historical process all the more fascinating because it is never ending.


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Angel Whitefang (Rider) 
Posted on 14-Nov-2003, 11:36 AM
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Every Man Woman and Child who Died during th eCivil War should be Honored. Just as every Man woman and Child who died in 911 should be. They were all Vitums of Governmental Control and circumstance. We should Honor them if nothing else for being Honorable enough to Stand up and FIght for their rights as Human, Americans, Family members & Their Beliefs. There is NO EVIL in THAT!
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RavenWing 
Posted on 14-Nov-2003, 12:00 PM
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Whether the PC police want to admit it or not, the Civil War was and still is a big part of Southern Culture. It has shaped them to be who they are as a group and it should not be forgotten.


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barddas 
Posted on 14-Nov-2003, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE (RavenWing @ Nov 14 2003, 01:00 PM)
Whether the PC police want to admit it or not, the Civil War was and still is a big part of Southern Culture. It has shaped them to be who they are as a group and it should not be forgotten.

That's a very true point Mary. I think that some of the older folks still hold a certain resentment to the North.

I look at this way.... those men, and boys fighting were all somebodies babies.... They should be remembered if not for just that....at the very least. They had mommas, and daddies that loved them....


I think I might becoming redundant.... wink.gif unsure.gif


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Arianrhod 
Posted on 16-Nov-2003, 01:48 AM
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If you are . at least you are consistant ! laugh.gif

I can't help BUT feel that way Elsbeth, I am glad you agree..

And I think we are all on the same page Raven Wing..
We are just saying there was MORE to the war, then the slavery issue .

In Service to the Dream,
Paula


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andylucy 
Posted on 16-Nov-2003, 07:38 AM
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QUOTE (barddas @ Nov 14 2003, 07:54 AM)


As long as someone doesn't become emotionally attached to the issue.... Hard thing to do sometimes....



That is the very reason that I do not reenact the American Civil War... There's just too many folks in my neck of the woods that don't realize that the War of Northern Aggression is over and the South lost. wink.gif Even today, you still see almost as many Stars and Bars flying as you do Stars and Stripes. sad.gif

People may chastise me for being a "dirty redcoat" in my American Revolution persona but they don't spit at me (except for some PETA wackos at an event once. But that's another story biggrin.gif ). It happens at CW events all the time. Sad.

Just my tuppence (only a ha' penny after stoppages though laugh.gif )

Andy


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Annabelle 
Posted on 16-Nov-2003, 11:28 AM
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I appreciate those who stand for Something
It's those who stand for nothing that bother me! LOSERS!

Let's get something straight to begin with..All Wars are about Money!

Now with the Civil War, this was not just a war based on SLAVERY as many of us get side tracked...the war was one of ECONOMICS!

Let me explain..........

Back then 4 Southern States here in America paid over 70% of the tax revenues America was using to build their country on at the time.

Why the Civil War came about is there was a high Tarriff on Imported goods from England then. By placing this Extremely high tarrif on these goods it forced the Southern States to buy their goods from the Northern manufactures. Most of the slaves that were brought over to sell here in America were brought in my Norther Merchants who found a market for their Product (slaves) in the South as the southern manufacturers were trying to off set their expense in producing goods.

Slavery was NOT the primary issue but the one most people center the "Civil War" to be about...

If everyone will look at the Southern "Rebel" Flag you will notice it's basic flag begins with the "St Andrew"s flag (Scotland) as the beginning of the design of the Rebel flag..

If you don't believe me down load a copy of the Rebel flag and you will see for yourself...

I agree with Kid and Mac...the side you fought on was decided along time ago...and what direction your family migrated once they came to the Americas.

I believe all men who fight for this country, either on our soil or abroad should be honored cause they fought for ME!

One of the things I really believe is wrong, is the fact we as people do not pull together to fight those who want to undo the past.

By changing those schools names, or highways...I'm tired of acting like our pasts do not exists...I'm tired of considering personal rights....I don't believe I have to sacrifice History for someone else's personal rights....well how about mine and my choice to keep them...where are my rights and where is the honor to my family members who died for this great country?

Sometimes people say those things are offensive to others, well wiping out history I find more offensive...we can't change the past..We can only learn and try to improve...If those who really believe in the past being offensive, why do they mimic THEIR historical culture with clothing here in the US, cause their trying to reclaim something they lost along the way. And that's ok, but when they change history they hurt me and others who had family die here in other battles....so don't expect me to give up my history for someone else...it's just not going to happen.

I'll give you an example: The other day I had a lady call me on a cross reference phone book for information on my business. When she got to the last question she asked me was I MINORITY owned? I said yes..she then asked the nationality she asked me was I white, asian, black, hebrew or other.
I said Other! She then asked what that was? I told her Scottish in my heavy Scottish Accent...she got very quiet...she said Ms.A, do you really consider that to be a minority? (I won't tell you what she was, you can guess for yourself and I don't want to OFFEND anyone) I told her it counts about as much as her's does...to say the least...It let her know everyone counts! Everyone has rights! And I'll get up and do something about it too.

When you see people petition to change something you don't believe is right, don't sit on your ARSE and complain, get up and do something, or shut up!

The Squeeky wheel, gets the oil...not the one that run's smoothly...so use your voice...that is the reason God gave you one...you have the right to hold to your heritage as well as the next fella..That' s what made the US a great country...the ability to speak.

Yes, I'm very passionate about equality for everyone...I don't care a flip about color, race, royalty or other...If you have to tear someone else down to make yourself feel better, than we'll get you a number for a good Doctor.

Let's all respect each other while we are here on earth...our time is short so live life and enjoy being together.

Annabelle


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andylucy 
Posted on 17-Nov-2003, 03:47 AM
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QUOTE (Annabelle @ Nov 16 2003, 10:28 AM)

By changing those schools names, or highways...I'm tired of acting like our pasts do not exists...I'm tired of considering personal rights....I don't believe I have to sacrifice History for someone else's personal rights....well how about mine and my choice to keep them...where are my rights and where is the honor to my family members who died for this great country?

when they change history they hurt me and others who had family die here in other battles....so don't expect me to give up my history for someone else...it's just not going to happen.


Annabelle, I agree with you 100%!

(Mounting soapbox).

Revisionist history is all the rage these days. I understand that there are many different interpretations of history (HIS600, Intro to Historiography, scarred me deeply biggrin.gif ). But to completely erase whole blocks of inconvenient facts just because they might offend someone is inexcusable.

If you want to interpret them and put your own particular spin on them, that is fine. That is playing by the rules. That is what the study of historiography is about, determining the views and prejudices of a given author. But when you just decide to forget that certain events happened or certain people once lived, to me that is cultural/historical genocide. That is tantamount to taking a bulldozer through an archaeological site just because you don't think the people that once lived there were important. And for every generation exposed to "altered history" the greater the damage done to our collective memory.


(Dismounting soapbox).

Just my tuppence.

Andy
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Elspeth 
Posted on 18-Nov-2003, 10:01 AM
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Why Annabelle, darling, you found your brain! I knew you knew where it was all along and was pretending to ahve lost it to fool all of us. biggrin.gif
You go girl. And I'm a minority too. I'm the only one who picks up anything in this house or cleans a toliet. That makes me a minority in my book. laugh.gif

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Annabelle 
Posted on 18-Nov-2003, 05:41 PM
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Well was that good for everyone...I'm worn out...putting my brain back in the closet now...clunk!

Don't make me use it for a long time...

Annabelle
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maryellen 
Posted on 18-Nov-2003, 09:05 PM
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I'm sure my favorite people will attack me again after I say this, but here goes...
There is a general idea in this thread that anyone that stands for something should be honored. I do not see how the hijackers on 9-11, who risked their lives to stand for something, should be honored. I do not see how Nazi Germany, firmly believing to eliminating everyone but the Aryan race, should be honored. If you think it is right to honor them, then go do so.

"Please show respect and appreciation to alternative views posted here. We appreciate your consideration"


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Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 
Posted on 19-Nov-2003, 08:50 AM
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As the Commander of Sons of Confederate Veterans Guy-Thurman Camp, and Vice Commander of Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln Camp, Rochester, NY, I find this thread most interesting. Most of my own Civil War ancestors were in Scott County, VA, an area in which feelings were deeply mixed. The 64th Virginia (Mounted) Infantry/Cavalry, CSA, in which many of my ancestors served, has been described by some as being largely composed of men with pro-Union sentiments. The 65th Kentucky Enrolled Militia (US) in which my gg-grandfather Bird Franklin served, was described in a letter written by its commanding officer as being untrustworthy because so many of the men were pro-secession.
As has been pointed out by others, slavery was not the overriding issue for most of the troops. For most CSA soldiers, the issue was protecting their homes and families from northern aggression. For most Union soldiers, the issue was preserving the Union. We should not forget that four slave states--Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri--stayed in the Union, albeit only through extra-legal (dare I say dictatorial?) actions by President Lincoln. The "free" state of New Jersey still had more slaves than the "slave" state of Delaware. One thing many history books conveniently overlook is the northern participation in slavery. One of the standard cautions in geneology is that you may discover unpleasant things about your family. In my own case, I discovered that some of my Long Island Thorne ancestors owned slaves in the 1600's (as reflected in wills and tax record). In addition, the NY branch of my Livingston line made a fortune in the slave trade. I suspect that anyone--north or south--whose family has been in the country long enough will find similar unpleasantness with enough research.
There was never a formal end to the WBTS, and in some areas the grudges created by the war continued for a long time. For example, my 2d cousin Captain Bill Strong, 14th Ky Cav (US) was shot from ambush by some of his former Confederate neighbors in 1897. In my view, there are many who will not consider the work begun by President Lincoln finished until all traces of the old South have been obliterated--what amounts to cultural genocide.
It is certainly heartening to see so many on this forum supporting the honorable men, women, and children on both sides of this tragic conflict, which in my view could have avoided had the moderates on both sides been able to keep everyone, including the hotheads, talking to one another.


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barddas 
Posted on 19-Nov-2003, 09:00 AM
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QUOTE (maryellen @ Nov 12 2003, 09:46 PM)
To dispute most high school history texts, the Civil War was not based on slavary, but political moves when incorporating new states into the union.
I don't think that those that fought for evil should be honored. Those that fought for their homes, for freedom and for good should be honored no matter which side they were on. I know I disagree with a lot of you, thats just how I see it.

I think with this post, maryellen you made your point clear. I do not believe ANYONE said "lets honor the hijackers from 9/11." That was not a war situation. That was a terrorist act of agression.
HUGE difference.

And as far as you "being attacked" by your "favorites". When open comments like that are made you are just stiring the pot, and making yourself a target, or throwing out a line waiting for a bite.... If you don't bait people they are less likely to "attack" your comments.....

If you would like to comment on this please PM me.... Lets keep the thread to the subject.

Thanks
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barddas 
Posted on 19-Nov-2003, 09:20 AM
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QUOTE (maryellen @ Nov 18 2003, 10:05 PM)
*** This is an edit from above post****


There is a general idea in this thread that anyone that stands for something should be honored.

I do not see how Nazi Germany, firmly believing to eliminating everyone but the Aryan race, should be honored. If you think it is right to honor them, then go do so.

"Please show respect and appreciation to alternative views posted here. We appreciate your consideration"

I think you are missing the point. We are *only* discussing the American war between the states. There has been no mention of WW2 at all. Why bring it up? It is a totally different topic and situation....

I'm not picking on you, I just think you are jumping to conclusions to things that have not even been discussed.... Because I have not seen any mention of other wars ( with the exception of re-enactors) posted....Just an observation.... that's all.

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Annabelle 
Posted on 19-Nov-2003, 09:42 AM
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That is the only problem with heated discussions is the fact something always triggers discussing other non-related topics into an already started thread...that emotional trigger always carries it's own baggage and is sometimes injected into a discussion of another topic...so hard to seperate issues sometimes...

So Let's discuss Confederate Memories ! Everyone matters here!

Annabelle
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