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> Ground Zero Mosque?, Feisal Abdul Rauf - Liaison or Threat?
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Antwn 
Posted: 07-Jul-2010, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 07-Jul-2010, 01:36 PM)
I could care less what happened a hundred years ago or longer. I am familiar with what happened but I am intelligent enough not to dwell on it. Actually, there was no discussion of "history" here until your post and it is not referenced in the topic. We are not here to discuss history but "Replying to Ground Zero Mosque?" . 9/11 is now! The survivors of 9/11 are now!

The ill will toward muslims and the islamic faith has diminished little if any and maybe has even gotten worse since B. Hussein Obama began his love fest with them.

There is considerable ill will within the Catholic community about the actions of it's priests. Locally, and by that I mean a 40 mile radius or so, there are 11 protestant ministers either in prison or awaiting trial for child abuse. I would estimate that there are close to a hundred churches of various size in that area. Mostly they are "youth" ministers. We also have two school teachers in the mix. It seems that the pedophiles are more prevalent everywhere in vocations which deal with children where they would of course be drawn by their depravity.

I expect little to come from the hearing unless they are "overwhelmed" by protestors. As there were 1,000 once, with publicity there may be many more now.

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Patch    

You missed the point by getting hung up on the examples given to elucidate it. I was responding to your expectation to be hated as a member of a religion because others of that faith behave badly, and made the point that others are able to make distinctions between singular follower and aggregate belief, something you do not make yourself and stated that you would not expect to be made had members of your religion been responsible for 9/11. Besides, not all examples were ancient history.


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Patch 
Posted: 07-Jul-2010, 06:30 PM
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If members of my faith had conspired and killed 3,000 plus Americans I would expect to be hated and reviled by association. I would expaect that to me magnified if my religion taught me to kill those who did not convert to my belief.

Try to be a Christian missionary in an islamic country! It greatly shortens your life expectancy.

They have declared holy jihad (war) on us and our leadership is too stupid to realize it!

You do not understand what the koran instructs Those of islam to do.

I doubt you could find a hundreth of one percent of the victims families who want the mosque there. They are the ones who should be honored. I see no reason to honor the muslims killed by their own.

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Antwn 
Posted: 07-Jul-2010, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 07-Jul-2010, 06:30 PM)
If members of my faith had conspired and killed 3,000 plus Americans I would expect to be hated and reviled by association. I would expaect that to me magnified if my religion taught me to kill those who did not convert to my belief.


Sorry Sir, but I think guilt by association is an unfortunate and unsupportable stance, but of course I can't change your mind and won't attempt it. I was only pointing out the fact that not everyone shares that attitude.
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TheCarolinaScotsman 
Posted: 07-Jul-2010, 08:30 PM
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I would simply say hate is what got us here, it will not get us out. And yes, sterotyping an entire group from the actions of a fraction is prejudice, bigotry and hatred. If one doesn't like that label, I'm sorry, but it doesn't change what you are.

I stopped in for a moment to see what was happening; I see it is still the same old hate filled diatribe, so I'll take another break and ease my blood pressure.


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Antwn 
Posted: 07-Jul-2010, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (TheCarolinaScotsman @ 07-Jul-2010, 08:30 PM)
I would simply say hate is what got us here, it will not get us out. And yes, sterotyping an entire group from the actions of a fraction is prejudice, bigotry and hatred. If one doesn't like that label, I'm sorry, but it doesn't change what you are.

I stopped in for a moment to see what was happening; I see it is still the same old hate filled diatribe, so I'll take another break and ease my blood pressure.

Thank you Sir, I agree. For the same reason I have not been a part of this forum for a while. Sometimes I just have to chime in because there never is an alternate viewpoint and true discussion has become all but impossible in any practical sense, so I'm not going to bother. The forum has become someone's blog. Yes, it hasn't changed at all.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 07-Jul-2010, 09:45 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 07-Jul-2010, 10:27 PM)
QUOTE (TheCarolinaScotsman @ 07-Jul-2010, 08:30 PM)
I would simply say hate is what got us here, it will not get us out.  And yes, sterotyping an entire group from the actions of a fraction is prejudice, bigotry and hatred.  If one doesn't like that label, I'm sorry, but it doesn't change what you are.

I stopped in for a moment to see what was happening; I see it is still the same old hate filled diatribe, so I'll take another break and ease my blood pressure.

Thank you Sir, I agree. For the same reason I have not been a part of this forum for a while. Sometimes I just have to chime in because there never is an alternate viewpoint and true discussion has become all but impossible in any practical sense, so I'm not going to bother. The forum has become someone's blog. Yes, it hasn't changed at all.

What these guys said. sad.gif
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 07-Jul-2010, 10:04 PM
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There are more important things in my life than where they put this mosque.
I think that the area is not perhaps the best place for a mosque OR a church, but that is based more on the surrounding neighborhood than anything else. I have never been to NYC (and have no desire to do so), but isn't a business district? I don't think it fits in.


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Patch 
Posted: 07-Jul-2010, 11:00 PM
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It is "in your face" to the relatives of the 3000 plus who died there. That is why it should be moved. Beyond that Dogshirt is right, there are more important things out here, the economy being paramount.

Read the Koran. it is not prejudice, it is safety!

Actually, prejudice is the dismissal of charges by the justice dept against the black panthers who intimidated voters in Pa. Does that make the left prejudiced?

Slàinte,   

 Patch    
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Jillian 
Posted: 08-Jul-2010, 05:56 AM
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My posts on this subject weren't meant for hate speech. I've followed this subject and my concern lies with the intent behind having a mosque built at Ground Zero and the ongoing practice of Islam in building mosques in areas where they have --or intend to conquer.

Englanders recently put their collective foot down to stop a giant mosque from being built by the new olympic stadium. If Christians attempted to build mega churches in Bagdad, I would certainly understand the resentment of the Iraquis who live there....and rightfully there would be resentment.

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Patch 
Posted: 08-Jul-2010, 07:58 AM
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QUOTE (Jillian @ 08-Jul-2010, 06:56 AM)
My posts on this subject weren't meant for hate speech. I've followed this subject and my concern lies with the intent behind having a mosque built at Ground Zero and the ongoing practice of Islam in building mosques in areas where they have --or intend to conquer.

Englanders recently put their collective foot down to stop a giant mosque from being built by the new olympic stadium. If Christians attempted to build mega churches in Bagdad, I would certainly understand the resentment of the Iraquis who live there....and rightfully there would be resentment.

Jillian

There would be a lot of headless Christians in Bagdad there would quickly be a lot of headless Christian bodies laying around.

It seems now that the left quickly calls anyone who is not in agreement with them racist and bigoted.

Usually when charges of racism are randomly leveled, the group leveling the charges are themselves racist. By accusing other it draws attention away from their own dark secrets.

Slàinte,    

Patch    
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Antwn 
Posted: 08-Jul-2010, 12:00 PM
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QUOTE (Jillian @ 08-Jul-2010, 05:56 AM)
My posts on this subject weren't meant for hate speech. I've followed this subject and my concern lies with the intent behind having a mosque built at Ground Zero and the ongoing practice of Islam in building mosques in areas where they have --or intend to conquer.


I believe you Jillian, at least your first sentence.
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Jillian 
Posted: 08-Jul-2010, 04:49 PM
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Thanks Antwn. I was hoping it wasn't coming off that way.

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Jillian 
Posted: 14-Jul-2010, 08:17 AM
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More news regarding the Ground Zero Mosque:

[/QUOTE]The Huffington Post, July 14, 2010 by Beth Fouhy AP 7/12/10 (NEW YORK) — The ranking Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee said Monday he favors an investigation into the funding of a proposed mosque near ground zero.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Rep. Peter King raised concerns about the sources of funding for the proposed $100 million mosque, just blocks away from the site of the Sept. 11 attacks, where nearly 3,000 Americans died at the hands of Islamic terrorists.

"It's a house of worship, but we are at war with al-Qaida," King told the AP. "I think the 9/11 families have a right to know where the funding comes from; I think there are significant questions."

The mosque is a project of the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Institute, which promotes cross-cultural understanding between Islam and the West. Cordoba's director, Imam Faisel Abdul Rauf, has refused to disclose the sources of funding for the mosque and once suggested in a television interview that U.S. policies contributed to the 9/11 attacks.
King's views differ sharply from those of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who said Monday it would be un-American to investigate the mosque. Bloomberg, a Republican-turned-independent, has backed the mosque since the project came under development, as do numerous other community and political leaders including Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, the Democratic nominee for governor.

King is a supporter of Republican Rick Lazio's campaign for governor. Lazio opposes the mosque and has called on Cuomo to look into its funding. Lazio was scheduled to testify Tuesday on the mosque at a hearing of the New York City Landmarks Commission.

Cuomo has said he would investigate the mosque if there is evidence of wrongdoing or criminal behavior but that no such evidence has been put forth.

Even though a mosque is supposed to be a religious setting, ground zero may not be an appropriate spot for this or any proposed mosque, King said.

"Right at this moment in history, it's bad form to put it there," he said. "There are things you are allowed to do, but that aren't appropriate to do."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/13/r...u_n_643925.html
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Another video is the GROUND ZERO MOSQUE CONTROVERSY VIDEO:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4196440/ground-...ue-controversy/

Dozens speak out against planned mosque near ground zero at NYC hearing on landmark status Published July 13, 2010 Associated Press


Dozens of opponents and some supporters of a mosque planned near ground zero attended a raucous hearing Tuesday about whether the building where the Muslim place of worship would be created warrants designation as a city landmark and should be protected from development.

Republican gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio, who has sought an investigation into the funding of the mosque, was among the witnesses who testified in support of giving the building landmark status, which could complicate plans by Muslim groups to develop a community center and mosque there.

After noting the lower Manhattan building's history and architectural significance, Lazio said it also warranted landmark designation because on Sept. 11, 2001, it was struck by airplane debris from the terror attacks against the nearby World Trade Center. That connection to the attacks, he said, made it "a place of deep historical significance and a reminder of just what happened on New York's darkest day."

Lazio has called on state Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, his Democratic opponent in the governor's race, to investigate the funding of the project. On Tuesday, he repeated that request and said the pace of the landmark designation process should be slowed to allow time to thoroughly investigate the matter.

Nearly 100 people attended the hearing at a college campus on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. Fifty-six people testified at the hearing, which turned contentious at times, with some speakers drowned out by shouts from the audience and with one man escorted out by campus security.

"To deprive this building of landmark status is to allow for a citadel of Islamic supremacy to be erected in its place," said Andrea Quinn, a freelance audio technician from Queens who said she had worked with people at the World Trade Center.

But Rafiq Kathwari, who described himself as a moderate Muslim, said the landmark discussion had been hijacked.

"This has been made by a very vocal minority into an issue of bigotry," said Kathwari, as he held up his U.S. passport and was nearly drowned out by shouts from the crowd. "I'm standing in a hall in which I feel ashamed to be an American."


The mosque and the related community center are a project of several groups, including the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative, which promotes cross-cultural understanding between Islam and the West. Cordoba's director, Imam Faisel Rauf, has refused to disclose the sources of funding for the mosque.But Sharif El-Gamal, the CEO of the company that owns the property, said that the project's backers were committed to transparency and were working to set up a nonprofit organization.

"We are going to go through a capital campaign," which will consist of equity debt, bonds, grants and fundraising from the grass roots, he said. They were committed to working with the attorney general's Charities Bureau, which supervises charitable organizations and works to protect donors, he said.

El-Gamal testified at the hearing, saying they were opposed to designating the building a landmark because it does not meet the requirements of historical significance.

"This is not the Woolworth building, this is not the Chrysler building," he said later in an interview.

The five-story building on Park Place, a few blocks north of Wall Street, was completed between 1857 and 1858 and is an Italian Renaissance-inspired palazzo. It formerly housed a department store, which closed after the building was damaged on Sept. 11. Muslim prayer service is held at the building at least one day a week.

Landmark status could require the owners to obtain the approval of the city's Landmarks Preservation Commission before making significant changes. It's unlikely that, if granted such status, the building could be demolished.

The city's 11-member Landmarks Preservation Commission is expected to vote later this summer on whether the building meets the standards of architectural, cultural and historic characteristics to qualify it for landmark status.http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/13/dozens-speak-planned-mosque-near-ground-zero-nyc-hearing-landmark-status/
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An issue of bigotry Mr. Kathwari? Why would fevered discourse about such a sensitive issue have Mr. Rafiq Kathwari feeling "ashamed to be an American"? If you come to America it is generally for freedom of speech, freedom of religion, liberty and the opportunity to prosper. Heated debate and the liberty to do so is our constitutional right. In this wonderful country you have the right to build a mosque, and simply engaging in discourse of disagreement with your conviction that one must be erected at Ground Zero, should not detract from your American-ness. I understand that Kathwari may be offended by the protests, but nevertheless he should - as an American - understand the sensitivities involved in this issue. Note to Kathwari: this is not the mideast and those outside of your religion and your gender have a voice here. If you feel ashamed to be an American...well...you have choices here because we won't detain you from leaving. Moreover, waving a U.S. passport does not portray your American-ness. The 9/11 hijackers had passports too. If moderate Muslims truly want to be stewards of cross-cultural understanding, then lets start by hearing what you all have to say about say...women's rights. No Sharia Law here...we see what has happened in Britain.

I think Dr. Zudhi Jasser says it best in the article below:


Mosque unbecoming
Not at Ground Zero

By M. ZUHDI JASSER
Last Updated: 4:35 AM, May 24, 2010
Posted: 2:06 AM, May 24, 2010

In the 1960s, my parents left their despotic motherland of Syria for the promise of genuine liberty and religious freedom in America. In the decades since, we have led the construction of a number of mosques in the towns where we lived.

Some went up without challenge from the local community, but others met with palpable local discontent. In those cases, the law and the natural American affinity for religious freedom eventually paved the way to the ribbon cutting.

These were all humble mosques, funded locally by our congregations. It's plain the planned "Ground Zero mosque" is something very different. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, his wife, Daisy Khan, and an investor intend to build "Cordoba House," an ostentatious $100 million, 13-story Muslim community center including a gym, a swimming pool, a performance-arts facility and a mosque.

Way too close: The proposed Cordoba House, a $100 million, 13-story Islamic cultural center and mosque, would replace the inset building two blocks away from Ground Zero.

My first concern is whether the financing truly represents the local American Muslim community or comes with strings from foreign Islamists. But that is far from my last concern.
I am an American Muslim dedicated to defeating the ideology that fuels global Islamist terror -- political Islam. And I don't see such a "center" actually fighting terrorism or being a very "positive" addition near Ground Zero, no matter how well intentioned.

To put it bluntly, Ground Zero is the one place in America where Muslims should think less about teaching Islam and "our good side" and more about being American and fulfilling our responsibilities to confront the ideology of our enemies.

Khan and Rauf avoid discourse on reform and political Islam. Instead, they simply give us the familiar, too vague condemnation of "extremism and violence." They seem to conveniently view 9/11, al Qaeda and every manifestation of militant Islamism as simply a public-relations problem for "Muslims in the West." Imam Rauf has even gone so far as to bizarrely say that the 9/11 terrorists were "not Muslims."

As controversy over the project has become heated, Rauf's Web site has scrubbed the term "mosque" in exchange for "center" -- again missing the boat of why so many Americans are offended. (Meanwhile, the plans of another local Islamic group to rebuild near Ground Zero only added to the quandary.)

This is not about the building of a mosque or a religious facility. It is not about religious freedom. This is about a deep, soulful understanding of what happened to our country on 9/11.

When Americans are attacked, they come together as one, under one flag, under one law against a common enemy that we are not afraid to identify. Religious freedom is central to our nation - and that is why the location of this project is so misguided. Ground Zero is purely about being American. It can never be about being Muslim.
The World Trade Center site represents Ground Zero in America's war against radical Islamists who seek to destroy the American way of life. It is not ground zero of a cultural exchange. We American Muslims cannot merely passively avoid Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood and its offshoots. We need to ask ourselves: Are we Americans who happen to be Muslim or Muslims blindly demanding to be American?

American Muslims will be better served if this project is built further away from Ground Zero and focuses on leading a reform effort. If we help build anything at the WTC site itself, it should be timeless memorials to all those who lost their lives on 9/11 -- memorials blind to faith, race, creed or national origin.

On Sept. 12, 2001, I was first an American. When those planes hit the World Trade Center, they hit at the core of my being as an American. The attack on my faith by the terrorists was secondary to their attack on my homeland.

We need to focus our efforts more transparently on teaching Muslim youth that the American concepts of liberty and freedom are preferable to sharia and the Islamic state. American Muslims represent the best opportunity to fight Islamist radicalization not because we understand Islam but because we have experienced and understood what American liberty provides to the Muslim experience.

Americans must always remember the horrors of 9/11 and must be vigilant in not allowing political Islam to wear down the principles that built our country.

This center is trying to change the narrative of 9/11 -- to diminish what happened at Ground Zero. That can only weaken us against the very real threat of Islamist radicalization.

M. Zuhdi Jasser is president of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy and a former US Navy lieutenant commander. [email protected]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedc...yGgz4ATF9v7cBDM[QUOTE]

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Jillian 
Posted: 11-Aug-2010, 10:38 PM
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So now that the mosque has a green light...we now have this to contend with:

QUOTE
Ground Zero Imam Travels on Uncle Sam’s Nickel
Tuesday, 10 Aug 2010 10:29 AM Article Font Size   
By: John Rossomando

The State Department will be footing the bill for Feisal Abdul Rauf, the imam behind the controversial ground zero mosque, as he embarks on a tour of the Middle East.

Plans for the $100 million mosque have drawn strong criticism from 9/11 families, as well as prominent figures such as Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich.

Rauf personally has become controversial because he refuses to acknowledge Hamas is a terrorist group and for his stated belief U.S. foreign policy partly was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

The trip’s announcement Monday raises concerns Rauf will be taking advantage of taxpayer dollars to raise money for the divisive project. But the State Department says the publicly funded trip intends to foster “greater understanding” about Muslim communities in the United States.

“He is a distinguished Muslim cleric,” The New York Post quoted State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley as having said about the imam’s trip, which reportedly will include stops in Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, and Qatar. “I think we are in the process of arranging for him to travel as part of this program, and it is to foster a greater understanding around the world among Muslim-majority communities.”

Crowley denied Rauf would be using the trip for fundraising purposes despite reports in a London-based Arabic-language newspaper the imam plans to collect money from Muslim and Arab nations around the world. The trip likely would put Rauf into contact with many of the people he needs to raise money for the mosque.

“Does the State Department have any idea they are sending a guy to the Middle East who is going to be fundraising with the very same people he will be meeting with?” Debra Burlingame, a 9/11 family member, asked, according to the Post. “We know he has a fundraising association with Saudi Arabia.”

Rauf maintains close ties with the Saudis who have contributed money to underwrite programs run by the imam’s American Society for Muslim Advancement, the Post reports.

At the same time, however, the Post reports state regulators have said the sale of an adjacent Con Ed building needed to be complete the mosque might be subject to review despite assurances to the contrary.


© Newsmax. All rights reserved.



I feel sick...really. There are no words to express my disgust.

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Dogshirt 
Posted: 11-Aug-2010, 10:54 PM
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I am NOT a union carpenter, and as a whole, I have no use for unions. But I was heartened the other day when a union carpenter started an INSIDE call( going behind the union bosses and straight to the rank and file) that NO carpenter will put foot on the job! Sort of like the Ft. Hood shooter STILL getting a paycheck, but NO ONE will cash it!
If NO construction workers will do the job, then it is a DEAD issue!

GO TRADESMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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