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> Pledge Of Allegiance, students
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Antwn 
Posted: 19-Mar-2010, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 18-Mar-2010, 07:07 PM)
Personally I feel that if someone finds it so offensive as to complain, they should leave. Otherwise keep quiet and ignore it.

    

That was the point of the lawsuit. Floridian students were being forced to participate and one sued for the right not to. Hence, they were not allowed to keep quiet and ignore it. Now they can with parental permission.


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englishmix 
Posted: 19-Mar-2010, 09:16 PM
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Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance regularly is a joy and an honor for me. Our schools also give a moment of silence for prayer or reflection. This is how we share our objective unity, teach it to future generations, remember those daily serving our nation at peril to their own lives, and remind ourselves of the duty which we have to the welfare of our nation and communities. I haven't heard of a private or parochial school which does not do this regularly. The public schools are government run (sadly), but still do they not have an obligation to teach good citizenship and encourage to hold citizens to it?

I pity those who sit on their rumps in such ingratitude or ignorance. This country gives them the right though, but this country was not made and preserved by the like of such people.

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Antwn 
Posted: 20-Mar-2010, 04:02 PM
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I don't think anyone has a monopoly on patriotism or how its legitimately expressed. I also think it damned presumptuous to assume a person who dissents from expressing it in a specific, token, preapproved party line manner for whatever reason is obviously unpatriotic. Patriotism is in the heart. No amount of ritual can instill it and non-participation in one specific ritual isn't necessarily characteristic of the lack of it. As soon as you can look inside a person's heart beyond your own presuppositions and judgements then maybe you can see what's felt there.

The pledge ends "....with liberty and justice for all". Presumably that would include those who don't want to stand up to recite it exercising said liberty. As Jillian said, perhaps some object to the "under God" statement, or perhaps some object to part but not all of the pledge. In any case, whose conscience are they at liberty to follow in a free society? Who has the right to determine in what manner that shoud be done? No one but the person themselves. Anything less isn't free is it? Gee, and I thought you guys were against government intervention in people's lives telling them what to do.....

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Camac
Posted: 20-Mar-2010, 04:12 PM
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Antwyn;

I agree with you on this. Here our oath is to Canada and her Majesty the Queen her heirs and successor and I don't need to swear that every day. I do however swear it when the need arises. Anyway I don't know the Queen personally and I doubt she knows I exist so I don't think it upsets her that I don't swear my allegiance to her every day.


Camac

PS;The Oath ends so help me God but we don't have to say that also we can replace the word swear with affirm.
               
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Antwn 
Posted: 20-Mar-2010, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 20-Mar-2010, 04:12 PM)
Antwyn;

I agree with you on this. Here our oath is to Canada and her Majesty the Queen her heirs and successor and I don't need to swear that every day. I do however swear it when the need arises. Anyway I don't know the Queen personally and I doubt she knows I exist so I don't think it upsets her that I don't swear my allegiance to her every day.


Camac

PS;The Oath ends so help me God but we don't have to say that also we can replace the word swear with affirm.

Hi Camac,

Ours begins "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands" .....its the second part of that statement that I'm happy to pledge loyalty to...in addition to the "liberty and justice for all" part.

Sorry, but personally I would have a hard time pledging allegiance to the Queen and her successors. I know, I'm pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth, but its what it represents (the republic for which it stands) that's important. The Queen is not only your head of state, but she's a person as well as a symbol, whereas a flag is a symbol only, and not subject to the follies and foibles of humans, though the republic is, but that's also a set of principles we do our best to live by.

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Camac
Posted: 20-Mar-2010, 05:33 PM
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Antwyn;

Basically up here the only time that the oath of Allegiance is is taken is when you become a Citizen join the military, police force or if you become a Member of Parliament,Cabinet Minister or Govenor General. Our Commander in Chief is the Queen or her viceroy not the PM. Also I believe that the US does not dip your Flag to the President where ours is dipped to the GG or Monarch. Just tradition.

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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 20-Mar-2010, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 20-Mar-2010, 06:33 PM)
Antwyn;

Basically up here the only time that the oath of Allegiance is is taken is when you become a Citizen join the military, police force or if you become a Member of Parliament,Cabinet Minister or Govenor General. Our Commander in Chief is the Queen or her viceroy not the PM. Also I believe that the US does not dip your Flag to the President where ours is dipped to the GG or Monarch. Just tradition.

Camac

The Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

Is a voluntary oath that Citizens of the United States may participate in. There is no legal penalty for failure to participate in or abide by that oath. It is left to the conscience of the individual as to whether they participate or abide by their oath.

The Oath of Office (or Oath of enlistment for enlisted military) is a federal, state, or local requirement for those entering government service. A persons failure to abide to the oath can result in civil and criminal penalties. I believe it would be hard to find an example of anyone who has ever been prosecuted for violating their oath (which probably explains why many politicians have no problem with ignoring their's).

Oath of Office (Federal)

President:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Vice President and Congress:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

Supreme Court:

"I, [NAME], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent upon me as [TITLE] under the Constitution and laws of the United States. So help me God."

Military Officers:

"I, _____ , having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."

Enlisted:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God" ( I've taken this one four times)

Most, if not all States, have similar oaths for their constitutional officers.


Long ago when I was a senior in high school there was a girl in my "homeroom" (I don't what they call it now, or if they even have such a thing anymore) who was a Jehovah's Witness. At that time the members of that religious group had a First Amendment objection to taking oaths (I'm not sure if that is still their position). Our homeroom teacher did require her to stand during the Pledge but would not, and as far as I know, could not compel her to say the Pledge. I would suggest that common courtesy, if not to your Country and Flag, to you neighbors and friends would be to stand (if physically capable)while they are standing for the Pledge. If Florida Law (which I don't believe was the case) or a public school or teacher was requiring a student to say the Pledge they were in the wrong. I do not have a problem with the parent(s) being required to confirm the objections of any students under the age of 18.


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Camac
Posted: 20-Mar-2010, 07:08 PM
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Mace.

Here are our oaths;

Military: I do swear/solemnly affirm that I will be Faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada her hiers and successors according to law.

Citizenship: I swear/affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second. Queen of Canada her heirs and successors and that I will faithfully obey the laws of Canada and fufill my duties as a Canadian Citizen.

Politcal Office: I ______; do solemnly swear /affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, her heirs and successors according to law, forever (So help me |God)
As our PM is a Member of Parliament he takes the same oath as any other member.

A little bit different than from what you take. Certain things are taken for granted up here in that by swearing allegiance to the Queen we swear allegiance to Canada and our Constitution. Also as she or her viceroy is CinC the Pm can't order the troops into the streets without her consent.



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