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> Muslims Not 'Free Of Being Mocked, Really? You could have fooled me.
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Antwn 
Posted: 06-Oct-2009, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 05-Oct-2009, 11:32 PM)
I can't really disagree with anything you said, but only the perception I get that you may feel we (non-Muslims) should avoid satire, or critique or any other thing which may offend.

You completely misunderstood my post Shamrock. I don't see how you could have made such a perception, unless you miss having a clear position to dispute. I know where some of your peeves lie, but lets not project them on another whose post didn't take a position peeves you. I don't advocate avoidance of satire so as not to offend. Here's what I wrote:

"That said, I still think the west should err on the side of our own traditions, meaning publish the cartoons and counter their protestations by adhering to freedom of speech. The Danish cartoon was for a western readership after all. Multiculturalism should include advocating and defending one's own cultural traditions too. If not then the whole exercise becomes one of habitual self-subjugation and appeasement not mutual appreciation. "

To avoid publishing cartoons so as not to offend would be to render the importance of one's own cultural traditions subordinate to another's in one's own milieu. Multicultural appreciation is not obtained by habitual self-subjugation, as I've stated.

As for Maplethorpe's artwork you mentioned, the same tradition of freedom applies. One reason its become more overt and graphic may be because no one is being burned at the stake for offending the church in their artwork anymore. Even when they were, protestations in art were just more subtle, cryptic, masked as something else. Possible offense is a price of freedom. Of course one can always simply avoid works of art they find offensive. rolleyes.gif


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Antwn 
Posted: 06-Oct-2009, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 05-Oct-2009, 06:56 PM)
Most people I know feel the same as I. However, the religious training of Muslims seems to cause them to be intolerant of ANY percieved slight. Being that "thin skinned", they should stay home! They would be much happier there.


There's nothing wrong with anyone being offended. Its an understandable response. The problem is not that they're offended its that they demand expression be censored so that they never are offended, then threaten the lives of anyone who doesn't comply with this demand. That's the problem.

Saying in essence "f**k 'em if they can't take a joke" closes the dialogue and is not a solution to anything. We share the world, and its becoming smaller. Communication thus cultural interactions and friction are instantaneous and global. Improving mutual understanding doesn't necessarily mean acquiescence to another's demand, but it starts by seeing beyond us/them, my way or the highway mentalities. If you're going to pretend western might justifies bullying the attitudes of others you're just exacerbating the perpetual grievance of the weak thus ensuring the continuity of the problem.

The solution is difficult because it takes two to tango and another's willingness cannot be coerced only given, and that doesn't seem to be forthcoming in earnest. Bomb blasts have made that position clear. Yet if a dialogue is to have a chance then someone has to take a position which invites it.

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Patch 
Posted: 06-Oct-2009, 06:18 PM
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The president has offered dialog and they make him the brunt of their hate. If they hate him, how does anyone expect the rest of us to accomplish anything?

Slàinte,    

Patch    
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Antwn 
Posted: 06-Oct-2009, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 06-Oct-2009, 06:18 PM)
The president has offered dialog and they make him the brunt of their hate. If they hate him, how does anyone expect the rest of us to accomplish anything?

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Fine then, give up before you start. Real good idea, and one that ensures failure since no effort is made. I wasn't speaking about you personally. Do whatever you want. I was talking about an attitude. The president invites open dialogue. No one expects instantaneous results, except maybe you.
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Patch 
Posted: 06-Oct-2009, 07:40 PM
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It has not worked in any of European countries or any that have not adopted their religion as far as I know. Only a fool would continue with that philosophy and it appears obama has willingly accepted the label!

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Antwn 
Posted: 06-Oct-2009, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 06-Oct-2009, 07:40 PM)
It has not worked in any of European countries or any that have not adopted their religion as far as I know. Only a fool would continue with that philosophy and it appears obama has willingly accepted the label!


Obama has accepted a label designation you have assigned to him huh? Such wonderful self centered arrogance! Of course a conclusion MUST be true since it has occurred to you, right? If change isn't instantaneous is won't occur, right? The length and breadth of your vision on this issue apparantly doesn't extend beyond hubris.
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 06-Oct-2009, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 06-Oct-2009, 03:15 PM)
You completely misunderstood my post Shamrock.

I must have. Sorry.


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The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859

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Jillian 
Posted: 07-Oct-2009, 12:04 AM
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Maybe we should blend this whole "cartoon freedom of speech debate" with the "open dialogue" debate. Perhaps Obama should open up talks with Ahmadinejad starting with, "A Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Taoist, and an atheist walk into a bar....". Get all the elephants to stampede out of the room.

Jillian jawdrop.gif


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Patch 
Posted: 08-Oct-2009, 08:41 PM
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Good Idea!!

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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 10-Oct-2009, 11:27 AM
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This one "slipped" in under the radar:

Obama Leads U.S. Against Free Speech


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Patch 
Posted: 10-Oct-2009, 05:36 PM
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As we add these different discoveries up we begin to see what the true intent is. This is definitely something to be concerned about. I have forwarded the link to see how many may have heard it.

Slàinte,    

Patch    
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