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> Muslims Not 'Free Of Being Mocked, Really? You could have fooled me.
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 04-Oct-2009, 06:19 AM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 02-Oct-2009, 07:15 PM)
I don't think they're trying to force their religion by this, they're trying to coerce respect for their own idea that their religious beliefs are beyond reproach. They want its sanctimony respected and want to dictate the terms. Unfortunately for them, that's not how the rest of the world works, certainly not secular democracies, which are anathema to the socio-political-religious proclivities of the majority of Muslim states.

Could you give your definition of "infidel", and a brief description of the thought behind "cut the head off the infidel?" I've always viewed this as their belief that anyone who does not believe in Allah, or who rejects Allah, or who mocks Allah, or who lives contrary to the Qur'an, and their command to rid the world of such.


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Camac
Posted: 04-Oct-2009, 11:01 AM
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SCShamrock;

Actually Infidel is an English word used to describe those without faith. Traditionally it was used by The Catholic Church to describe those who did not believe in the divinity of God. In essence Muslims are not Infidels because they believe in the divinity of god but are infidels in the sense that they do not believe as Christians do and the same goes for Christians in the eyes of Muslims. Now I'm an Infidel to both Christians and Muslims as I do not believe in the divinity of God and therefore cannot be consider a person of the book, the Book being the Old Testament, New Testament, and the Koran. I am not an Aetheist as I believe in a Creator I just don't believe He/She/It, is a God.




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Antwn 
Posted: 04-Oct-2009, 02:36 PM
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QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 04-Oct-2009, 06:19 AM)
Could you give your definition of "infidel", and a brief description of the thought behind "cut the head off the infidel?" I've always viewed this as their belief that anyone who does not believe in Allah, or who rejects Allah, or who mocks Allah, or who lives contrary to the Qur'an, and their command to rid the world of such.

Are you able to make a distinction between radical fundamentalist Muslims and the corpus of believers the same way I assume you do between fundementalist Christian abortion doctor killers and the vast body of Christian believers?



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gwenlee 
Posted: 04-Oct-2009, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 04-Oct-2009, 03:36 PM)
Are you able to make a distinction between radical fundamentalist Muslims and the corpus of believers the same way I assume you do between fundementalist Christian abortion doctor killers and the vast body of Christian believers?

I am sure SCShamrock can and so can the rest of us.

We all know that there is a double standard in the thinking of the vocals in the Muslim faith. They are the ones that influence the impression the rest of the world has about the Muslim faith.
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Antwn 
Posted: 04-Oct-2009, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE (gwenlee @ 04-Oct-2009, 03:17 PM)
I am sure SCShamrock can and so can the rest of us.

We all know that there is a double standard in the thinking of the vocals in the Muslim faith. They are the ones that influence the impression the rest of the world has about the Muslim faith.

Sorry Gwenlee, I must be one of those who are ignorant of what "we all know". Could you tell me what the double standard is to which you refer please?
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Antwn 
Posted: 04-Oct-2009, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 04-Oct-2009, 03:32 PM)
QUOTE (gwenlee @ 04-Oct-2009, 03:17 PM)
I am sure SCShamrock can and so can the rest of us.

We all know that there is a double standard in the thinking of the vocals in the Muslim faith. They are the ones that influence the impression the rest of the world  has about the Muslim faith.

Sorry Gwenlee, I must be one of those who are ignorant of what "we all know". Could you tell me what the double standard is to which you refer please?

It occurred to me that perhaps you're referring to Muslims not wanting their religious beliefs satirized, is that it?
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gwenlee 
Posted: 04-Oct-2009, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 04-Oct-2009, 04:55 PM)
QUOTE (Antwn @ 04-Oct-2009, 03:32 PM)
QUOTE (gwenlee @ 04-Oct-2009, 03:17 PM)
I am sure SCShamrock can and so can the rest of us.

We all know that there is a double standard in the thinking of the vocals in the Muslim faith. They are the ones that influence the impression the rest of the world  has about the Muslim faith.

Sorry Gwenlee, I must be one of those who are ignorant of what "we all know". Could you tell me what the double standard is to which you refer please?

It occurred to me that perhaps you're referring to Muslims not wanting their religious beliefs satirized, is that it?

Yep that would be right. thumbs_up.gif
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 04-Oct-2009, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 04-Oct-2009, 02:36 PM)
Are you able to make a distinction between radical fundamentalist Muslims and the corpus of believers the same way I assume you do between fundementalist Christian abortion doctor killers and the vast body of Christian believers?

Well first I would have to agree there is a comparable segment, for lack of a better word, of the Christian faith of fundamentalist Christian abortion doctor killers. I do not. There are a few whack jobs out there who will pop off an abortion doctor occasionally, but as of yet I have not heard of any organized group of them...overt or covert. But I do see the point you are trying to emphasize, and I will address that.

The Qur'an makes mention of the infidel, and what should be done to them. Now whether the vast majority of Muslims live by those tenets or not is not the issue. The fact is there is an extremely large and active group of Islamic fundamentalists who do see ridding the earth of the infidel as their holy charge. I think it is interesting to note the lack of fervor in the Islamic world of condemning this.

Contrast that with the Christian faith. Jesus is said to have fulfilled the law, meaning an end to "and eye for and eye, and a tooth for a tooth." Christians who feel they belong to God do so by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus. When they accept that gift, they are under the commandment of Jesus who, when pressed by his followers to cite the most important commandment, said we are to love God with all our hearts, all our souls, and all our strength, and to love our neighbor as ourself. So for the every day Christian, killing people who are atheists is not an option, and killing abortion doctors is not an option. We are taught to love our enemies, and to pray for those who spitefully use us. Now that's not to say there aren't those loonies out there who will kill or hurt others in the name of God, Jesus, Buddah, Allah, or anything else. But if it is a Christian who does this, then they are doing so out of some misguided notion, and not because the Christian bible told them to.
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Antwn 
Posted: 05-Oct-2009, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 04-Oct-2009, 07:56 PM)
Well first I would have to agree there is a comparable segment, for lack of a better word, of the Christian faith of fundamentalist Christian abortion doctor killers. I do not. There are a few whack jobs out there who will pop off an abortion doctor occasionally, but as of yet I have not heard of any organized group of them...overt or covert. But I do see the point you are trying to emphasize, and I will address that.

Well, I don't want to get into a discussion about who has the better religion. To me it would be as ludicrous as trying to determine who's the healthier among two mental patients, the one who thinks he's Napoleon or the one who thinks he's Genghis Khan.

The thread is about Muslim outcries at being mocked in satirical cartoons. Personally, I was thinking of the difference in satirical tolerance in larger cultural terms rather than strictly religious ones. Like I said earlier, the west has a centuries old tradition of satire which is not shared in regions where Islam predominates. When you employ draconian punishments among your own people for the slightest critique, its not a stretch to expect similar reactions when those from another culture satirise or criticize your religion.

I'm not justifying their reaction. Frankly I think they should grin and bear it, but I also understand their tradition is not a western one. That said, I still think the west should err on the side of our own traditions, meaning publish the cartoons and counter their protestations by adhering to freedom of speech. The Danish cartoon was for a western readership after all. Multiculturalism should include advocating and defending one's own cultural traditions too. If not then the whole exercise becomes one of habitual self-subjugation and appeasement not mutual appreciation. Perhaps standing by your own traditions is the best defense against coercive attempts to alter them according to the dictates of those who don't share your convictions. Demand for tolerance is a two way street while differences are worked out. The vehemence of their protestations doesn't increase the veracity of their arguments, its just makes them louder.

Disagreement with these points is welcome. I'd like to hear alternate opinions on this. This issue is at least one shield and spear in the culture war phalanx advancing on the west, where we are both attacker and defender.
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Patch 
Posted: 05-Oct-2009, 06:56 PM
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I am Catholic and I tell more Catholic jokes than anyone I know! I do not get upset about hearing those jokes either.

Most people I know feel the same as I. However, the religious training of Muslims seems to cause them to be intolerant of ANY percieved slight. Being that "thin skinned", they should stay home! They would be much happier there.

Slàinte,    

Patch    
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 05-Oct-2009, 09:06 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 05-Oct-2009, 06:56 PM)
I am Catholic and I tell more Catholic jokes than anyone I know! I do not get upset about hearing those jokes either.

Most people I know feel the same as I. However, the religious training of Muslims seems to cause them to be intolerant of ANY percieved slight. Being that "thin skinned", they should stay home! They would be much happier there.


Yes, but we're not talking about you or the people you know who share your opinion and your tolerance for catholic jokes. You cannot impose that standard of behavior on someone else as normative just because it is yours. You are using yourself as the nearest example of a good example again, and it's just as shortsighted and wrongheaded as always. You have no real insight into the problem, if all you can say is "Someone who doesn't share the basic nature of my sense of humor or my tolerance for disrespect of deity or belief system is 'thin skinned,' and should stay home so I can continue to live freely in poor taste and discourtesy outside in the open."
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Dogshirt 
Posted: 05-Oct-2009, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE (Patch @ 05-Oct-2009, 06:56 PM)
I am Catholic and I tell more Catholic jokes than anyone I know! I do not get upset about hearing those jokes either.

Most people I know feel the same as I. However, the religious training of Muslims seems to cause them to be intolerant of ANY percieved slight. Being that "thin skinned", they should stay home! They would be much happier there.




Yes, but we're not talking about you or the people you know who share your opinion and your tolerance for catholic jokes. You cannot impose that standard of behavior on someone else as normative just because it is yours. You are using yourself as the nearest example of a good example again, and it's just as shortsighted and wrongheaded as always. You have no real insight into the problem, if all you can say is "Someone who doesn't share the basic nature of my sense of humor or my tolerance for disrespect of deity or belief system is 'thin skinned,' and should stay home so I can continue to live freely in poor taste and discourtesy outside in the open."



I have to agree with Patch. They need to suck it up and get over it. Frankly I don't think the rest of the world really gives a damn if they get upset. I KNOW no one in my rather large sphere does.
And all their frothing at the mouth isn't going to change anything, except to egg more people on.


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Patch 
Posted: 05-Oct-2009, 10:02 PM
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Dogshirt:

Yes, It they choose to immigrate to other countries, THEY assimilate into the society of the host country, not the opposite. Try to go to their country and practice your beliefs. They regularly KILL Christians in the middle east. Our female soldiers have to comply with their islamic laws when WE are fighting to save their asses in their country!!

My a$$ hole neighbor, by the way, now beats his new red haired girl friend and still believes he has the right under his religious beliefs to do so. The police visit him often.

Slàinte,    

Patch    





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SCShamrock 
Posted: 05-Oct-2009, 11:32 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 05-Oct-2009, 06:20 PM)
Disagreement with these points is welcome. I'd like to hear alternate opinions on this. This issue is at least one shield and spear in the culture war phalanx advancing on the west, where we are both attacker and defender.

I can't really disagree with anything you said, but only the perception I get that you may feel we (non-Muslims) should avoid satire, or critique or any other thing which may offend. I would not approve if these types of things, usually done by media of one form or another, were to specifically target Islamic audiences. However, the audience for any media these days ends up being the world. So, while I realize that it doesn't take long after the release of any controversial cartoon to make it to the caves and mountains of deepest Afghanistan, that alone does not mean that this type of speech is to be forbidden. Public display of a photo of Jesus with feces smeared on it, in the name of art of course, should be a good example to show that not all religions are honored that much. So, to show such reverence for another belief (and it is religious) while condoning worse treatment to another, is at best discrimination, and at worst, an outright endorsement of that religion. Here in the US, the same group of media and other prominent figures who condemn satirical cartoons about Islam, also work feverishly here to prevent OUR government's endorsement of any religion. I find it a very blatant double-standard.
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Nova Scotian 
Posted: 06-Oct-2009, 07:27 AM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 05-Oct-2009, 09:06 PM)
QUOTE (Patch @ 05-Oct-2009, 06:56 PM)
I am Catholic  and I tell more Catholic jokes than anyone I know!  I do not get upset about hearing those jokes either.

Most people I know feel the same as I.  However, the religious training of Muslims seems to cause them to be intolerant of ANY percieved slight.  Being that "thin skinned", they should stay home!  They would be much happier there.


Yes, but we're not talking about you or the people you know who share your opinion and your tolerance for catholic jokes. You cannot impose that standard of behavior on someone else as normative just because it is yours. You are using yourself as the nearest example of a good example again, and it's just as shortsighted and wrongheaded as always. You have no real insight into the problem, if all you can say is "Someone who doesn't share the basic nature of my sense of humor or my tolerance for disrespect of deity or belief system is 'thin skinned,' and should stay home so I can continue to live freely in poor taste and discourtesy outside in the open."

OHHHHHHH! The POOOOOOOOR Muslims. sad.gif sad.gif sad.gif


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