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barddas 
Posted: 24-Jul-2003, 09:30 AM
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I was looking through the net and found this. Thought some may be interested.




The Six Celtic Languages



There was a unifying language spoken by the Celts, called not suprisingly, old Celtic. Philogists have shown the descendence of Celtic from the original Ur-language and from the Indo-European language tradition. In fact, the form of old Celtic was the closest cousin to Italic, the precursor of Latin.

The original wave of Celtic immigrants to the British Isles are called the q-Celts and spoke Goidelic. It is not known exactly when this immigration occurred but it may be placed somtime in the window of 2000 to 1200 BC. The label q-Celtic stems from the differences between this early Celtic tounge and Italic. Some of the differences between Italic and Celtic included that lack of a p in Celtic and an a in place of an the Italic o.

At a later date, a second wave of immigrants took to the British Isles, a wave of Celts referred to as the p-Celts speaking Brythonic. Goidelic led to the formation of the three Gaelic languages spoken in Ireland, Man and later Scotland. Brythonic gave rise to two British Isles languages, Welsh and Cornish, as well as surviving on the Continent in the form of Breton, spoken in Brittany.

The label q-Celtic stems from the differences between this early Celtic tounge and the latter formed p-Celtic. The differences between the two Celtic branches are simple in theoretical form. Take for example the word ekvos in Indo-European, meaning horse. In q-Celtic this was rendered as equos while in p-Celtic it became epos, the q sound being replaced with a p sound. Another example is the Latin qui who. In q-Celtic this rendered as cia while in p-Celtic it rendered as pwy. It should also be noted that there are still words common to the two Celtic subgroups.

As an aside, take note that when the Irish expansion into Pictish Britain occurred (see below), several colonies were established in present day Wales. The local inhabitants called the Irish arrivals gwyddel savages from which comes geídil and goidel and thus the Goidelic tounge.



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barddas 
Posted: 24-Jul-2003, 10:08 AM
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Here is a link I found that touches on the Picts-
This is not a complete guide or history but some nice general info.
Maybe Catriona has some inside info that be of more use wink.gif

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/10964/95224
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Catriona 
Posted: 24-Jul-2003, 10:10 AM
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QUOTE (barddas @ Jul 24 2003, 04:08 PM)
Here is a link I found that touches on the Picts-
This is not a complete guide or history but some nice general info.
Maybe Cat has some inside info that be of more use wink.gif

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/10964/95224

Sorry, Jason
I know very little about the Gaelic languages......

Lallans now? THAT'S my speciality! biggrin.gif
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RavenWing 
Posted: 24-Jul-2003, 11:03 AM
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This really is fascinating stuff. I want to go back to school sad.gif


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barddas 
Posted: 24-Jul-2003, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE (Catriona @ Jul 24 2003, 04:10 PM)
QUOTE (barddas @ Jul 24 2003, 04:08 PM)
Here is a link I found that touches on the Picts-
This is not a complete guide or history but some nice general info.
Maybe Cat  has some inside info that be of more use wink.gif

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/10964/95224

Sorry, Jason
I know very little about the Gaelic languages......

Lallans now? THAT'S my speciality! biggrin.gif

ok, so I couldn't remember exactly what it was you studied.... sorry wink.gif

Is there anywhere to read about, study more info???? I am not familiar with it AT ALL. So, I am eagar to find out about it, or at least be shoved in a good direction... smile.gif
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Catriona 
Posted: 25-Jul-2003, 06:01 AM
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Jason
Some of the boards that I am involved with are almost 'private' clubs... We are all native Scots and we have a couple of Americans who joined in, but found it too difficult to keep up!

Lallans is the language of the lowland Scot. In fact, it has been stated that it is THE language of Scotland, not Gaelic, as so few Scots in Scotland ever spoke Gaelic as their native language!

Here's an URL to get you started... http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/pronunci.htm

I am involved in preserving the speech patterns of my home town - which is totally different to the speech patterns from Glasgow or Fife - and yet all are 'Lallans'! Auld Scots is the root of Lallans. Doric is the Aberdeenshire area's equivalent to Lallans. A common dictionary is proving difficult

There is much discussion about whether Lallans is a distinct language or just a dialect of English. I believe it is the former! Now.... you've visited Scotland - you must have heard lowlanders speaking to one another..... Bet you didn't understand one word in 3?!!!! laugh.gif biggrin.gif The speed at which we speak also makes it difficult to decipher what we are saying.... I mean, just ask AD - she's becoming acclimatized, but she still has to concentrate to understand every word in a sentence, as opposed to understanding the overall sense of that sentence! Mind you, she is living in Fife, and their accents are quite 'thick'.... tongue.gif
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barddas 
Posted: 25-Jul-2003, 07:28 AM
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Thank you SO much for the information!

The accent was a bit thick here and there, but I didn't have too much of a problem understanding anyone. Except the guy at Loch Lomand laugh.gif His wasn't fast but VERY thick. That was one thing I really wanted to see.... just the everyday stuff...I guess that is why I wasn't with my tour group as much as I should have been..... wink.gif Just walked about and tried to soak it all in smile.gif

Again thank you for all of the information, I look forward to probably pulling my hair out laugh.gif tongue.gif LOL!
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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 25-Jul-2003, 10:04 AM
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I have a dictionary (a very very thick one) of Scots, and it has a very interesting preface. Once I have it here I will type it down and post it.

I also read at least one book concerned about british languages which states that Scots is far closer to old english than nowadays english and it could almost be compared to the way the german language went (which is very closely related to english too, another book I have speaks of english as german bastardized with french). There were two basic forms of old german, the southern and the northern form. Today's Dutch and the language of northern germany called "Platt" (from flat) is very close to the one language that Old English AND old german derived from.

I'm quite interested in such things and once I considered a career as a Philogist... I will probably keep on doing that as a hobby tho


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Shadows 
Posted: 25-Jul-2003, 11:23 AM
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Damn!!! another thing to put in the brain!!
I am still workin me way through the Lenape ( native american tribe, also know as Delaware ) lexicon. If this keeps up I guess I will become a man of the world; already had 3 years of Latin in the Catholic High School i went too...LOL!


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RavenWing 
Posted: 25-Jul-2003, 11:39 AM
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Shadows 
Posted: 25-Jul-2003, 11:49 AM
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barddas 
Posted: 17-Oct-2003, 09:38 AM
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QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jul 25 2003, 12:04 PM)
I have a dictionary (a very very thick one) of Scots, and it has a very interesting preface. Once I have it here I will type it down and post it.


Aon, did you ever get this book???? smile.gif
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DesertRose 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE (Catriona @ Jul 25 2003, 06:01 AM)
Lallans is the language of the lowland Scot. In fact, it has been stated that it is THE language of Scotland, not Gaelic, as so few Scots in Scotland ever spoke Gaelic as their native language!


There is much discussion about whether Lallans is a distinct language or just a dialect of English. I believe it is the former!

Catriona! This was very interesting to me because since I have been involved in a couple of Scottish sites, the emphasis was always on learning Scots Gaelic. This is not only by Americans, but by lowland Scots too. I have even studied the Gaelic some myself. Why is the emphesis so much on the Gaelic you wonder? It was my understanding that the Gaelic was the language of the Highlands and widely spoken there. Do a lot of people speak Lallans now? Sorry to ask such stupid questions, but I really know nothing about Lallans. Thanks! smile.gif


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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 06-Dec-2003, 07:42 PM
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oh left it in Cardenden.. sorry deary.. I'll be there for dinner and bring it with me

It'll take me a while typing that preface down! biggrin.gif

My GGrandma Amelie spoke Breton btw wink.gif She never taught me though =/ I spent alot of time with her when I was young and she would tell me Bretonic stories and such. Her Family came from Morbihan and Broceliande (the large forest.. well not large anymore). There is many stories ranking around Broceliande, especially the one of the "Bisclavret" the Werewolf. He was a local nobleman who's bride betrayed him and forced him to live as wolf. A lovely story. There's a book about it (nicely written) called "Wolf Within"
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