Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )



Forum Rules Enter at own risk!

The Philosophy, Science & Religion forum has been created as an unmoderated forum. The issues discussed here can and will get very intense. Please show respect and appreciation to alternative views posted here. We appreciate your consideration.

Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> The Christian Case Against Obama, 3 UTubes
Bookmark and Share
Antwn 
Posted: 12-Nov-2008, 05:42 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Celtic Guardian
********

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 1,409
Joined: 18-Apr-2005
ZodiacBirch

Realm: UDA ond o linach Cymry

male





I wanted to say something else. I assume the idea of America being a Christian nation comes from the fact that the majority of the populace is Christian. My question is, how does that obligate a decidedly secular government?

If the argument is that Christians are the majority of the consituency thus the government is obligated to make laws consistent with that belief system, then that to me negates the very separation Jefferson mentioned in his "wall of separtaion between church and state" statement made in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802.

If the argument is concerning the personal religion of the founders, which was Christian for some but not all - meaning that when we stray from somebody's interpretation of alignment with Christian values in our lawmaking we stray from the founder's intent, still that's a peripheral argument to a secular democracy and assumes an intent which is clearly contradicted in the first amendment.

If the argument is that the foundations of American law come from Christianity that's not wholly accurate. They date to pagan Roman times. Property ownership, contract law, the concept of precedent, separation of powers, vetoes, fillibusters, impeachments, regularly scheduled elections are but a few. These legal and constitutional concepts were derrived from a pre-Christian set of values.

My point here is that the nation's predominant religion, while having the same inescapable influence any philosophical predominance among the public would have, implies no specific obligation by government on its behalf. If claiming America to be a Christian nation consitutes some implicit governmental obligation to the dictates of that religion, then it becomes a de facto establishment of state religion, otherwise why make the claim it at all?


--------------------
Yr hen Gymraeg i mi,
Hon ydyw iaith teimladau,
Ac adlais i guriadau
Fy nghalon ydyw hi
--- Mynyddog
PMEmail Poster               
Top
Antwn 
Posted: 12-Nov-2008, 05:46 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Celtic Guardian
********

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 1,409
Joined: 18-Apr-2005
ZodiacBirch

Realm: UDA ond o linach Cymry

male





Sorry that last post should have been on another thread I think ....my bad.
PMEmail Poster               
Top
SCShamrock 
Posted: 12-Nov-2008, 08:15 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline





Confirmed Daydreamer
Group Icon

Group: Ireland
Posts: 1,169
Joined: 22-May-2004
ZodiacVine

Realm: Gamecock Country

male





QUOTE (oldraven @ 12-Nov-2008, 02:34 PM)

Sure, I'll respond.

This is in the wrong forum, because you stopped talking about the 'Christian case against Obama' a few posts back. I take issue with people trying to make the man into someone Jesus doesn't like. It's F*@kin' ludicrous. And to meet somewhere in between, do you think Jesus would be a Socialist, or a Capitalist? That's actually a great idea for another thread. Fair game, since you're the one who's brought the 'Jesus doesn't support Obama because he's a Socialist' point up.

How can we even argue about this? We're all idiots for doing so.

Thanks for the response, but the entirety was non sequitur. And what's with you saying I brought up a point that Jesus doesn't support Obama because he's a socialist? I linked to videos, responded to conversation, and asked a question, which you still haven't answered. Just like in other threads, the question never gets an answer. Just like when Barbara West asked it of Biden...no answer. I suspect the reason is due to the fact that one cannot make the case that Obama wanting to spread the wealth is indeed not Marxist. As for this being in the wrong forum, I prefaced this thread with that idea. I didn't think it truly belonged in one more than the other, but wouldn't mind it being moved. So sue me. Now could you please take a few deep breaths and answer my question?

Now to get back on something resembling the topic. These videos are quite biased in their intent. Personally, I'm not entirely affected either way by them, but do feel a sense of solemnity at the thought of our nations leader having the same faith as myself. And Barack Obama has stated many times he is a Christian. However, in one interview he referenced "my Muslim faith". I cannot believe that was a moment of confusion because I cannot fathom the circumstances where I would utter the words my Muslim faith, or my Jewish faith, or my Hindu faith, or my Buddhist faith, or my satanist faith, or my Mormon faith, or my Wicken faith, or my B'ahai faith, or my Jehovah's Witnesses faith, and so on. Having been Christian as long as I can remember, what on earth could possibly have me make such a statement? I can't think of a single thing that would. That is my only rubric for suspecting Obama. I think he's lying. He certainly has lied about other things. We can call them contradictions, but they're lies nonetheless. No, when he stands with his hand on the Christian? bible and swears the oath of the office of president, will that not mean anything to him? To the more progressive minded, it shouldn't matter. After all, this is not a Christian nation, right? But then we have him say "so help me God" at the end. The same God in whom we trust? Our money says we do. There are some real reasons to feel alarmed by Obama. But the most significant for those of us who do believe the Christian bible is that Obama does not reflect a person who is true to his faith, if indeed he is a Christian.


--------------------
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859

Education: that which reveals to the wise, and conceals from the stupid, the vast limits of their knowledge.
~Mark Twain
PMEmail Poster               
Top
danceswithblades 
Posted: 12-Nov-2008, 08:29 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Peasant
*

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 7
Joined: 01-Oct-2008
ZodiacRowan


female





OMG! "My Muslim faith"! Do you suppose he is a terrorist? Maybe he can tell us where Osama is!

My only observation is that I feel a lot of people of religion spend a lot of time arguing whether or not other people are one of them. They sift for slips of the tongue, inconsistencies, etc. Who among us has not been in error and changed his mind, or his ways, as he grows in knowledge? I get nervous that such an attitude should determine statecraft, whether it be mullahs declaring fatwas or Christians excommunicating or excluding one another.
PMEmail Poster               
Top
stoirmeil 
Posted: 12-Nov-2008, 09:10 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Celtic Guardian
********

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 3,581
Joined: 07-Nov-2004
ZodiacBirch

Realm: New York







QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 12-Nov-2008, 08:15 PM)
And Barack Obama has stated many times he is a Christian. However, in one interview he referenced "my Muslim faith". I cannot believe that was a moment of confusion because I cannot fathom the circumstances where I would utter the words my Muslim faith, or my Jewish faith, or my Hindu faith, or my Buddhist faith, or my satanist faith, or my Mormon faith, or my Wicken faith, or my B'ahai faith, or my Jehovah's Witnesses faith, and so on.

Hmmm . . . in what interview? is that one of the things in the video? (Unfortunately I can't open or play videos.) Is there a possibility that what he said was "My Muslim father?" What strains my credibility? It's too hard to imagine a lie of this size going undetected and un-outed way long before now. There are too many people who would love to pin this on him definitively, and it would be too easy to substantiate with witnesses who would be falling all over themselves to come forward.

That would be "wiccan," btw. smile.gif
PMEmail Poster               
Top
stoirmeil 
Posted: 12-Nov-2008, 09:14 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Celtic Guardian
********

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 3,581
Joined: 07-Nov-2004
ZodiacBirch

Realm: New York







QUOTE (RebeccaAnn @ 11-Nov-2008, 11:20 PM)
The cry of John Paul Jones still goes out among our military today "Give me liberty or give me death."

"Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.
PMEmail Poster               
Top
SCShamrock 
Posted: 12-Nov-2008, 10:54 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline





Confirmed Daydreamer
Group Icon

Group: Ireland
Posts: 1,169
Joined: 22-May-2004
ZodiacVine

Realm: Gamecock Country

male





QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 12-Nov-2008, 09:10 PM)
Hmmm . . . in what interview? is that one of the things in the video? (Unfortunately I can't open or play videos.) Is there a possibility that what he said was "My Muslim father?" What strains my credibility? It's too hard to imagine a lie of this size going undetected and un-outed way long before now. There are too many people who would love to pin this on him definitively, and it would be too easy to substantiate with witnesses who would be falling all over themselves to come forward.

That would be "wiccan," btw. smile.gif

Gee, thanks for the spelling correction. I'll be sure to help you with your posts too.

Your response seems to suggest I made the whole thing up. When you read the article, are you going to be all pro-Obama to the point of ignoring his words? Will you give the fact he said it any chance of evidence that he let it slip because it's true? Or will you just be another Obamite, ready to defend anything that remotely reveals Obama to be less than the saviour the Media has tried to make him out to be? Call it what you will, but I stand by my previous statement that I cannot believe a person could let something like that escape their lips unless there was truth in it.

QUOTE
Barack Obama's campaign brushed off suggestions Monday that a verbal gaffe the Democratic candidate made during a weekend television interview is anything more than just that.


In an interview Sunday with ABC's "This Week" host George Stephanopoulos, Obama tried to suggest that FOX News and others "closely allied" to Republicans are promulgating the notion that the Illinois senator is Muslim.


Asked about whether McCain himself has done anything to suggest he's Muslim, Obama said, "Let's not play games. What I was suggesting -- you're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith. And you're absolutely right that that has not come..."



"Christian faith," Stephanopoulos interrupted, correcting Obama.



"... my Christian faith. Well, what I'm saying is that he hasn't suggested that I'm a Muslim. And I think that his campaign's upper echelons have not, either. What I think is fair to say is that, coming out of the Republican camp, there have been efforts to suggest that perhaps I'm not who I say I am when it comes to my faith, something which I find deeply offensive, and that has been going on for a pretty long time," Obama said.
PMEmail Poster               
Top
oldraven 
Posted: 13-Nov-2008, 07:44 AM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



The Protector of the Unknown
Group Icon

Group: Scotland
Posts: 3,316
Joined: 20-Oct-2003
ZodiacHazel

Realm: Guysborough Co., Nova Scotia

male





It sounds like he's referring to the way Republican media has been pinning him as a Muslim, and that McCain hasn't at that point made any comments on his fictitious Muslim Faith. He says before and after that he's a Christian. What are we to hear, the clear statement, or the reference with two vastly different interpretations? Depending on how you read it, it was the interviewer who turned the statement around by correcting him.

QUOTE
But the most significant for those of us who do believe the Christian bible is that Obama does not reflect a person who is true to his faith, if indeed he is a Christian.


So are you going to take a look at the beam in your eye, when you stand and judge a man who hasn't even had the opportunity to make policy yet? You made your choice with your vote, now, according to Romans 13, you have to support and follow your chosen leader, who was placed there by God. (I'm talking in theory here) If you're truly worried about living true to your faith, you should accept this man and give him a chance to prove himself and really show his goals through action without passing judgement. He can't make that much of a change in 4 years. If he really is as bad for the US as the naysayers say he is, then he will be impeached or voted out in the next election. It obviously takes a truly horrific leader to get the nation to impeach him, though. Do the Christian thing, and give the guy a chance.


--------------------
Caw

"I am a Canadian by birth, but I am a Highlander by blood and feel under an obligation to do all I can for the sake of the Highlanders and their literature.... I have never yet spoken a word of English to any of my children. They can speak as much English as they like to others, but when they talk to me they have to talk in Gaelic."

-Alexander Maclean Sinclair of Goshen (protector of Gaelic Culture)

We need more Stan Rogers.

jams
PMEmail PosterUsers Website               
Top
SCShamrock 
Posted: 13-Nov-2008, 08:01 AM
Quote Post

Member is Offline





Confirmed Daydreamer
Group Icon

Group: Ireland
Posts: 1,169
Joined: 22-May-2004
ZodiacVine

Realm: Gamecock Country

male





QUOTE (oldraven @ 13-Nov-2008, 07:44 AM)

So are you going to take a look at the beam in your eye, when you stand and judge a man who hasn't even had the opportunity to make policy yet?

I've said before, I hope he does a fantastic job. I also hope he goes against the ideas he promoted during his campaign. This is not about condemning the man, it's about exposing his propensity to lie and deceive (this thread) which I do feel is bad for our country. Also, you are mistaking my words for judgement. A more applicable phrase from the bible would be "you will know them by the fruits they bear". I don't judge Obama, I judge what he says and does; whether those things are right and good for our country and whether they reflect who I want holding the office of President. There's a big difference.
PMEmail Poster               
Top
Antwn 
Posted: 13-Nov-2008, 02:04 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Celtic Guardian
********

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 1,409
Joined: 18-Apr-2005
ZodiacBirch

Realm: UDA ond o linach Cymry

male





QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 12-Nov-2008, 08:15 PM)
I suspect the reason is due to the fact that one cannot make the case that Obama wanting to spread the wealth is indeed not Marxist. As for this being in the wrong forum, I prefaced this thread with that idea. I didn't think it truly belonged in one more than the other, but wouldn't mind it being moved. So sue me. Now could you please take a few deep breaths and answer my question?


The devil's in the details and we don't have any concerning Obama's ideas about spreading the wealth.

Marx advocated most importantly the abolition of private property ownership and national ownership of the means of production. I don't see Obama advocating either.

The 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto:

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Abolition of all right of inheritance.
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c., &c.[5]

Can you point out how Obama has advocated even half of these points in any of his campaign rhetoric? If not, then by what standard is he a Marxist?

Calling Obama a Marxist or even a socialist is like claiming you have pneumonia because your nose is running - yes there's a chance such a condition may develop, but you're far from that point at present and symptoms will get alot worse beforehand. Bottom line, the diagnosis is extreme for the symptoms at hand and doesn't warrant the level of concern or intervention a true condition of that kind would.
PMEmail Poster               
Top
TheCarolinaScotsman 
Posted: 13-Nov-2008, 02:41 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Celtic Guardian
********

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 2,508
Joined: 13-Jun-2003
ZodiacBirch

Realm: North Carolina

male

Medieval Kingdom
Rank #2
2,147,483,647 Gold!






QUOTE (Antwn @ 13-Nov-2008, 03:04 PM)
[
The 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto:

Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c., &c.[5]


By reasoning as some have, then if you are for public education and against child labor, then you are a communist. One can make the term fit almost anyone but that doesn't mean that the people fit the term.


--------------------
TheCarolinaScotsman


Ya'll drive safe and come back soon.
PMEmail PosterMy Photo Album               
Top
stoirmeil 
Posted: 13-Nov-2008, 03:10 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Celtic Guardian
********

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 3,581
Joined: 07-Nov-2004
ZodiacBirch

Realm: New York







QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 12-Nov-2008, 10:54 PM)


That would be "wiccan," btw. smile.gif [/QUOTE]
Gee, thanks for the spelling correction. I'll be sure to help you with your posts too.

. . .

Or will you just be another Obamite, ready to defend anything that remotely reveals Obama to be less than the saviour the Media has tried to make him out to be?

If you think I need any help with spelling or grammar, you're genuinely welcome to offer it.
. . .
I'm not an Obamite of any kind, much less "just another" one. But I don't find any comfort or practical benefit in being an internet burr under his tail now that he has an overwhelming electoral -- and a pretty sturdy popular -- victory, if you call being saddled with sorting the present conditions victorious.
PMEmail Poster               
Top
SCShamrock 
Posted: 13-Nov-2008, 03:17 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline





Confirmed Daydreamer
Group Icon

Group: Ireland
Posts: 1,169
Joined: 22-May-2004
ZodiacVine

Realm: Gamecock Country

male





I never knew it was necessary to fulfill the 10 planks of the Communist Manifesto in order to be Marxist. Hmmm, I guess that's worth a moment of thought.

Ok, I've thought about it. I don't think it's necessary at all. Not all of them, 1/2 of them, 1/3 of them. Just one will suffice. And I feel that one may well breed another. The whole scheme of communism is in creating a societal equilibrium where the populace is dependent upon government. Perhaps starting at the most fundamental level--economics--is the most perfect, as it seems our stability as a nation in every way hinges on our economy. Add a little Eminent Domain, have the Fed bail out enough banks, require our crops to be burned for fuel...now you're getting somewhere. And while I don't necessarily think Obama is a dyed-in-the-wool socialist, I do believe he has demonstrated enough propensity to lean in that direction that once he gets a head of steam, there will be no stopping it. And do tell, what on earth would possess a president to declare that we need a "national security force" just as equipped and well funded as our current military? Who would they answer to? What would be their purpose?

So no, I cannot make the case that Obama is pushing the 10 planks, nor can anyone as some of them are not pertinent to our country or time. Aside from that, I don't even feel that is required...just one is enough. However, I'll give you a little analogy that expresses where I am with this man. Like most people on here, I'm a music lover. Back in the early 90's, the grunge band Alice In Chains came out with a song, Man in the Box. At the time I was an insurance salesman, on the go a lot, and didn't have the desire to sit and listen that intently to the lyrics of this song. But it sounded good! Any time it came on the radio while I was driving I would crank up the volume for a bit of head-banging. Then one day my wife asked "why do you like that song so much?" I told her because it sounds so good. To this day I like how it sounds. But then I finally listened to the lyrics and when I heard "Jesus Christ..deny your maker" I knew, I could not listen to this again. To me, the song became a representation of something I hate; to me it was downright blasphemous. That's how I feel about Obama. There may be some things about him I like, but there's enough there to turn me off completely. And there's enough socialistic viewpoint to have me calling him a socialist.

I hope that was a sufficient answer. Antwn, can you or anyone else please tell me how Obama's desire to "spread the wealth around" is NOT socialist? I'm not asking to have you explain whether or not Obama is a socialist, but just to defend his fiscal policy.
PMEmail Poster               
Top
Antwn 
Posted: 13-Nov-2008, 03:53 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Celtic Guardian
********

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 1,409
Joined: 18-Apr-2005
ZodiacBirch

Realm: UDA ond o linach Cymry

male





QUOTE (SCShamrock @ 13-Nov-2008, 03:17 PM)
I never knew it was necessary to fulfill the 10 planks of the Communist Manifesto in order to be Marxist. Hmmm, I guess that's worth a moment of thought.

Ok, I've thought about it. I don't think it's necessary at all. Not all of them, 1/2 of them, 1/3 of them. Just one will suffice. And I feel that one may well breed another. The whole scheme of communism is in creating a societal equilibrium where the populace is dependent upon government. Perhaps starting at the most fundamental level--economics--is the most perfect, as it seems our stability as a nation in every way hinges on our economy. Add a little Eminent Domain, have the Fed bail out enough banks, require our crops to be burned for fuel...now you're getting somewhere. And while I don't necessarily think Obama is a dyed-in-the-wool socialist, I do believe he has demonstrated enough propensity to lean in that direction that once he gets a head of steam, there will be no stopping it.

I hope that was a sufficient answer. Antwn, can you or anyone else please tell me how Obama's desire to "spread the wealth around" is NOT socialist? I'm not asking to have you explain whether or not Obama is a socialist, but just to defend his fiscal policy.

He's not a dyed in the wool socialist but he is a socialist? Well, make up your mind. Your defense of your own assertions seems to be based more on subjective feelings than argument. Nothing wrong with that, just as long as I understand your assessment criteria, I can then determine the level of credibility I'm going to assign to them. Neither of us has much to go on at this point. The guy's closest association to the White House so far has been a tour.

If you're going to call someone Marxist yet say in being such they need not subscribe to any of the points of Marx's philosophical or sociological theory but one, is to render the label meaningless. Fine. There's goes that assertion. If I agree with one point of the eight fold path laid out by Buddha, its doesn't make me a Buddhist.

I agree that the stability of a nation hinges on its economic health. Yet the federal bail out of banks, AEG etc is a current administration "solution" which did not originate with Obama. Why don't you say Paulson is a socialist, or Bush?

As far as defending Obama's fiscal policy goes, no I can't, any more than you can assert its socialistic nature legitimately. Why? Because we don't know what his fiscal policy is yet. Once we do, we can re-open this discussion on the subject. I would like to know about it as much as you would - but discussion is too presumptuous at this point. Discrepancies between campaign rhetoric and actual policy once is office is axiomatic for politicians.

By the way, I'm not an Obamite either (sounds like some sort of bug). I did wake up late this morning and missed the news, but as far as I know he didn't walked on water today. I have set aside my own judgements about his policies until he actually does something, but I can appreciate your sentiments, and I share your apprehensiveness about the direction of the country and its current state of affairs. Calling Obama Marxist or socialist however is not only unsupportable but it isn't useful either in my opinion.
PMEmail Poster               
Top
TheCarolinaScotsman 
Posted: 13-Nov-2008, 03:55 PM
Quote Post

Member is Offline



Celtic Guardian
********

Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 2,508
Joined: 13-Jun-2003
ZodiacBirch

Realm: North Carolina

male

Medieval Kingdom
Rank #2
2,147,483,647 Gold!






And what does the phrase "spread the wealth around" mean? According to some, it means redistribution of wealth, but Obama never said that; to claim that is what he meant is putting words in his mouth. If you read his agenda that is laid out on his official website, it becomes abundantly clear the he is speaking of spreading the opportunuity for wealth around. This all started because some of McCain's folks took one phrase, twisted it to mean something else and then tried to paint Obama as a communist. Pure election scare tactics. Don't listen to what other people say he means, listen to what he says he means.
PMEmail PosterMy Photo Album               
Top
0 User(s) are reading this topic (0 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 








Celtic RadioTM broadcasts through Live365.com and StreamLicensing.com which are officially licensed under SoundExchange, ASCAP, BMI, SESAC and SOCAN.
2014 Celtic Radio Network, Highlander Radio, Celtic Moon, Celtic Dance, Ye O' Celtic Pub and Celt-Rock-Radio.
All rights and trademarks reserved. Read our Privacy Policy.
Celtic Graphics 2014, Cari Buziak


Link to CelticRadio.net!
Link to CelticRadio.net
View Broadcast Status and Statistics!

Best Viewed With IE 8.0 (1680 x 1050 Resolution), Javascript & Cookies Enabled.


[Home] [Top]

Celtic Hearts Gallery | Celtic Mates Dating | My Celtic Friends | Celtic Music Radio | Family Heraldry | Medival Kingdom | Top Celtic Sites | Web Celt Blog | Video Celt