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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 10-Aug-2008, 12:00 PM
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But I thought the scientist weren't even sure where Troy was in the first place that's why they are not sure if the war really happened or if it was a myth actually....

That's interesting...I would like to know more about The Trojan War and it's history...

Thanks Camac.

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Camac
Posted: 10-Aug-2008, 12:31 PM
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LOA;

Troy is real and it is right where Homer said it was. In fact there are nine Troys all built upon the ruins of the one before. They date back to at least 3000 BCE and the last was built by the Romans about 140 BCE. Troy seven is the Legendary Troy of the Iliad. This is the city of Priam, Hector and Paris.
If you wish we can discuss Troy and the War but it will distract us from the main topic of Ancient Greece. As I mentioned it could be a Forum unto itself. If any one is interested and has Google Earth you can go to Troy and see it the only trouble is that the closest you can get from an arial view is abouit 230 metres above.
Troy was a very rich city as it profited from control of the entrance to the Helespont
there by controlling the trade route. This made it a prime target for conquest and if Helen really existed she was just the excuse that the Myceneans needed to attack.
The Myceneans were more interested in controlling the flow of trade into the Aegean from the Black Sea that they were in getting a woman back. No matter how beautifull she was reputed to be. The story of Jason and the Argonauts which took place earlier is all bout just that,Trade. The Golden Fleece could have just been a euphemism for wheat. Colchis the land where the Fleece was kept is modern day Georgia (European).


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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 10-Aug-2008, 05:12 PM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 10-Aug-2008, 01:31 PM)
LOA;

Troy is real and it is right where Homer said it was. In fact there are nine Troys all built upon the ruins of the one before. They date back to at least 3000 BCE and the last was built by the Romans about 140 BCE. Troy seven is the Legendary Troy of the Iliad. This is the city of Priam, Hector and Paris.
If you wish we can discuss Troy and the War but it will distract us from the main topic of Ancient Greece. As I mentioned it could be a Forum unto itself. If any one is interested and has Google Earth you can go to Troy and see it the only trouble is that the closest you can get from an arial view is abouit 230 metres above.
Troy was a very rich city as it profited from control of the entrance to the Helespont
there by controlling the trade route. This made it a prime target for conquest and if Helen really existed she was just the excuse that the Myceneans needed to attack.
The Myceneans were more interested in controlling the flow of trade into the Aegean from the Black Sea that they were in getting a woman back. No matter how beautifull she was reputed to be. The story of Jason and the Argonauts which took place earlier is all bout just that,Trade. The Golden Fleece could have just been a euphemism for wheat. Colchis the land where the Fleece was kept is modern day Georgia (European).


Camac.

Thanks for the info.
It doesn't matter if we discuss a bit of it since it is part of the history of Ancient Greece and since there was 7 Troy cities it must have had a certain impact on the Ancient Greek civilization somehow.

Greece has a lot to offer in terms of history. And certainly we could discuss or learn from it for ages.

LOA

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Camac
Posted: 10-Aug-2008, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE
Lady of Avalon,10-Aug-2008, 05:12 PM

7 Troy cities it must have had a certain impact on the Ancient Greek civilization somehow.

Greece has a lot to offer in terms of history. And certainly we could discuss or learn from it for ages.

LOA

LOA;
The impact of Troy on Greece would not have been that great as it would have been relegated mainly to trade. Trojan traders would have acted as a conduit perhaps for ideas from Asia Minor, Egypt and the Minoans as it was know to trade with these other civilizations. We know that Troy was influenced more by the Asian cultures than Greek. It was an ally of the Hittite and had dealings with the Sumerians,and Assyrians. We also know that during the Trojan War they called on their neighbours for aid in repelling the Greeks. Mainly Troy was seen as a threat by the Greeks for as I said it controlled the Helespont and any Greek ship wanting passage would have to pay a toll plus taxes on its cargoe. We know from the records that Myceneans raided other cities along the Asian coast of the Aegean and at some time fought a war against the Hittites. We also know that Myceneans mercenaries fought for the Hittites and quite possibly aided then in their battles with the Egyptians. I should point out before I close that the Greeks were not known by that name at this time. They were the Aecheans, or Daanans. The names Greeks or Hellens would come much later. Most of what occurred in Greece from 1200 BCE to 800 BCE is lost due a Dark Age. What was known was passed down orally and is not to reliable a source.


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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 10-Aug-2008, 07:08 PM
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So would you happened to know where the name "Greek" come from then?
This is quite fascinating knowing that Greece knew a "Dark Age" since that civilization was much much more advance then other civilization in terms of knowledge.
What happened?

LOA
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Camac
Posted: 10-Aug-2008, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 10-Aug-2008, 07:08 PM)
So would you happened to know where the name "Greek" come from then?
This is quite fascinating knowing that Greece knew a "Dark Age" since that civilization was much much more advance then other civilization in terms of knowledge.
What happened?

LOA

LOA

THE DORIANS

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Camac
Posted: 11-Aug-2008, 07:43 AM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 10-Aug-2008, 07:17 PM)
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 10-Aug-2008, 07:08 PM)
So would you happened to know where the name "Greek" come from then?


LOA

LOA

THE DORIANS

Camac.

LOA;

The name Greek comes from the Latin name of a tribe from the East coast of central Greece that established a colony in Italy some time around 800 BCE. The Latin speaking people of the area called them Graii. It ended up being applied to all the Greek speaking people (Graeco)and eventually became the English word Greek.

To go off subject for just a moment. I have to thank you LOA for suggesting this topic it has gotten my brain back in gear after slowly idling for a long time.


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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 11-Aug-2008, 08:01 AM
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Why, I'm glad that you decide on writing your knowledge about history.
Being off topic a bit and have fun in it is my motto.Nothing's wrong with that because to me even if we are learning through the forums and different topics.As I said before we are not at school and we certainly can add fun in our discussions.

For my part since my father did not believe in school education I don't have a master degree or diploma of any kind, the bits and pieces of my knowledge of history,I learned from books and from the History Channel or Discovery Channel which are not much of reference.

So, even if there is only just the two of us in these forums, all I have to say is that you write and I'll read and ask questions.

Thank you my friend,
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Camac
Posted: 11-Aug-2008, 08:54 AM
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LOA;

To get back on subject: When the Dorians migrated in to the Greek Pennisula around 1200 BCE it plunged Greece into a Dark Age and one of the inexplicable
occurances was that the Greeks (Myceneans) stopped writing. At this time in their history they used a type of Cuniform writing much like the Phonecians, the Greek Alphabet would evolve towards the end of their Dark Age and was in use by the time Homer wrote his epics. It is believed that Homer was blind so he actually didn't write but dictated his stories. He took the accumulated oral traditional stories and compiled them into a written record of what was then Greek History. They have lasted over 2800 years. For centuries in modern history the Illiad and The Odyssey (The only stories of Homer that survived) were just that stories, fables and legends. It wasn't until the latter part of the 19th century that they were proven to be true with the discovery of Troy(1870), Mycenae, (Schliemann) and Minoan Knossos (Evans).

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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 11-Aug-2008, 06:30 PM
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I did not know what the word "Hoplite" meant. I search on Wikipedia and found this instructive paragraph about this piece of armour.

Hoplite
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Re-creation of a 4th-3rd Century Hoplite.The word hoplite (Greek ὁπλίτης, hoplitēs) derives from hoplon (ὅπλον, plural hopla, ὅπλα) meaning an item of armour or equipment, thus 'hoplite' may approximate to 'armoured man'. Hoplites were the citizen-soldiers of the Ancient Greek City-states. They were primarily armed as spear-men and fought in a phalanx formation.

Warfare in ancient Greece appears, for the most part, to have consisted of set-piece battles between independent city-states. The hoplite was an effective solution to this situation. A city-state could not afford a professional and/or standing army, so battles had to be fought by the citizens themselves. The tactics and techniques used in battle therefore had to be simple enough to be quickly mastered. Since the equipment was provided by the individual hoplite, it had to be affordable by an average citizen. The hoplite probably first appeared in the late seventh century BC. In the early Classical Period most battles appear to have primarily involved clashes of opposing phalanxes; tactics were simple and casualties relatively low. Towards the end of the classical period more sophistication seems to have occurred, culminating in the 'new model' army of the Ancient Macedonian Kingdom.

Almost all the famous men of ancient Greece, including philosophers and playwrights, fought as hoplites.[1][2] The most well-known hoplites were the Spartans, who were trained from childhood in combat and warfare to become an exceptionally disciplined and superior fighting force.


It must have been awfully hot under that piece of metal.No wonder these were formidable warriors,they were trained since they were boys.How times has changed.

Thanks Camac,LOA


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Camac
Posted: 11-Aug-2008, 06:35 PM
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LOA;

Actually HOPLON means Shield.. Thus the Hoplites were named for the Hoplon they carried.

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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 11-Aug-2008, 06:44 PM
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Yes I saw the design on another image that is more a shield then an armour actually.

Is that the shield in question?Shown on the image?

LOA


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Camac
Posted: 11-Aug-2008, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 11-Aug-2008, 06:44 PM)
Yes I saw the design on another image that is more a shield then an armour actually.

Is that the shield in question?Shown on the image?

LOA

LOA;
Yes that is the Hoplon (Shield) The Spear is call a Doru, and the sword is Xiphos and his body armour was called Linothorax.

Hoplites were classed as Heavy Infantry and until the advent of the Macedonian Phalanx armed with Sarissas (18 Foot long Spear) they were unstopable. Most Persian and Asian warriors were light infantry called Peltast.

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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 14-Aug-2008, 06:58 PM
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As I'm reading my huge book on Greek Myths I came across an interesting passage about their deities.

And I must say that even though some would say that it is probably my imagination but there is a lot of similarities in their beliefs of their Gods and compare to Christians beliefs and dreams.Here some lines of this passage.

The Age of Gold was the first age of the world,without hardship or toil for those who dwelt on Earth,and without crime.(Christians beliefs:Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden). The most recent age of the world,full of troubles and evils,is called the Age of Iron, but perhaps it would be better to call it the Second Age of Gold, for many of its troubles began when gold first tempted humankind to wickedness and war.(Christians beliefs:Abel & Cain,two brothers fighting to death)
Through the Age of Gold,Silver & Bronze, Astraea, the goddess of justice, still remained on Earth, but when the Age of Iron began, she found she could stay no longer. Now she shines down from the sky as the constellation Virgo,the virgin,Astraea once carried a pair of scales with which she weighed up the rights and wrongs of any dispute.Now Astraea's scales shine close by Virgo,as the constellation of Libra.(Christians beliefs:one becomes a shining star after death to watch over the loved one still on Earth.)



This is interesting to read something so similar to even todays religious beliefs.

LOA
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Camac
Posted: 14-Aug-2008, 07:18 PM
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LOA;

You will find a great many similarities between the old religions and Christianity.

The Trinity is an Egyptian concept.

Hell we took from the Nordic tribes.

Christmas of course is the Winter Solstice

Many of the old Eastern Religions made offerings of Bread and Wine.

The famous do unto others saying is actually Bhuddist.

It was not beneath the early Christian missionaries to adopt local myths and legends into their teaching.

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